No, I'm not talking baseball. This month the state of Texas will likely reach 400 people put to death in its prisons, since the Supreme Court – in its infinite lack of wisdom – reinstated capital punishment in 1982. To give some perspective, the second-ranking state is Virginia, at “only” 98 executions.
So, what's the matter with Texas? According to a recent article by Ed Stoddard and distributed by Reuters, the crucial factors are fundamentalist Christianity, the “Old West” mentality, and a good dose of racism – a lethal mix, as it turns out.
Christianity is supposed to be about the relatively gentler Jesus of the New Testament superseding the paranoid, self-centered and genocidal god of the Old Testament. Not so in the good 'ol South, where Matthew Wilson (a political scientist at Southern Methodist University in Dallas) says “a lot of evangelical Protestants not only believe that capital punishment is permissible, but that it is demanded by God.” And they are correct, of course, as these things go, although the real question is whether their god is acting morally in making such demand.
That the Old West mentality plays a role in all this will not come as a surprise to anyone who has ever been in Texas and has witnessed first-hand the peculiar pride that many locals take in wearing cowboy hats and boots, even though they may never have seen a cow in their lives. Still, the “rough sense of justice” made famous by screen stars from John Wayne to Chuck Norris (the latter, incidentally, recently turned rabid born-again) is apparently embedded in the Texan collective consciousness.
Finally, we get to racism. Yes, racism is all over the United States, but I've lived in different parts of it – from the South to the east coast, and if anybody tells you that the degree of racism is the same everywhere, they're full of it. One simple statistic is telling about Texas: blacks comprise 12% of the state's general population, but a whopping 41% of the prison population.
Christianity, cowboy attitude and racism welcome you to the Lone Star State – if you are white and god-fearing. Then again, things may be improving even there: just as in the rest of the country, the rate of executions has steadily being going down. The reason seems to be that the demographics are changing, with the Latino population in particular going up. And the new immigrants apparently have little taste for state-sponsored revenge. That is one good reason to make immigration easier, especially in the South. Oh, right, but that's also where the most xenophobic anti-immigrant politicians reside. I wonder if it is a coincidence.
Rationally Speaking: an archived blog about science & philosophy, by Massimo Pigliucci
One simple statistic is telling about Texas: blacks comprise 12% of the state's general population, but a whopping 41% of the prison population.
ReplyDeleteSure, but how does this compare to other states? I'd guess that blacks are overrepresented in prisons everywhere here (and, incidentally, in Brazil too). How overrepresented are the blacks in, say, New England? Less than Texas, or more? I've never seen these statistics. Did they have it for other states where you got those numbers, Massimo?
African Americans are over-represented everywhere in the US, though I'm not sure where Texas lies along the continuum. That said, the statistic is not quite as telling as it sounds, given that African Americans also tend to have characteristics (e.g. poverty) other than skin color that put them at risk for crime. I don't mean to say that racism doesn't play a part, only that it's a part of the story.
ReplyDeleteTexas did execute Johnny Connor, its 400th failure, and plans to execute three more individuals next week. For additional information on those three, please log on to http://www.ncadp.org. One of those scheduled - i. e., Kenneth Eugene Foster, Junior - killed no one. He ,is guilty of driving a car. For additional information, please log on to http://www.freekenneth.com. Please, moreover, take time to contact Governor Rick Perry by telephone at (512)463-1782 or by facsimile at (512)463-1849 ask that all executions be stayed and that sentences be communted to humane alternatives. Violence is a substitute for thinking. Capital punishment is a form of officially sanctioned violence. All states which endorse its implementation surely can fuctional more rationally than this. In peace. (562)864-8957
ReplyDelete"..ask that all executions be stayed and that sentences be communted to humane alternatives. Violence is a substitute for thinking. Capital punishment is a form of officially sanctioned violence."
ReplyDeleteunmathematical.
The application of punishment ought to be only as humane as the actual crime. Anything less begs the question of whether or not any murder (which is in fact "murder") whatsoever can be considered "humane". It is seldom and almost never that a murderer merely slips too much sleeping medication into another persons food or drink and they just fall asleep and die painlessly.
That would seem to be the most humane technique, but 99.9 % of murders do not qualify.
It is also throughly fallacious to think that one teaches others to murder by putting actual murders to death. One instead teaches potential murders that the cost to act on one's impulses is likely more than you are ever going to be willing to pay.
Anti-capital punishment types want to leave room for themselves, my assumption would be...
c
Anti-capital punishment types want to leave room for themselves, my assumption would be...
ReplyDeleteShame on you.
"Shame on you."
ReplyDeleteLOL!
For the interest in protecting innocent people and children? Yeah, right, definitely shame on me.
c
Cal,
ReplyDeleteYou're basically a monster, advocating revenge and probably torture too, and you don't even notice it. How nice are the religious people, if you're any example.
Now, I myself do not completely oppose the death penalty in all cases, although the way it is now seems to be broken (just see the amount of people freed by the Innocence Project or something like that). I can think of some cases where the death penalty might be, in principle, at least acceptable. For example, G.W. Bush could use a lethal injection himself (anesthetized, of course, we should be "humane"), given the amount of people he already killed, and still will. Although keeping him in jail would make him suffer much more, that would be a waste of taxpayer money.
"Christianity is supposed to be about the relatively gentler Jesus of the New Testament superseding the paranoid, self-centered and genocidal god of the Old Testament."
ReplyDeleteHave you actually read the NT and the OT ?
This is a common claim but it is false.
cal,
ReplyDeleteYou are using poor logic and strident language to make tired old point that the death penalty deters crime. (try a little brevity next time!)
The problem is that the evidence simply does not support your case. When it's been investigated, capital punishment has no effect or such a small effect on crime that it is not worth ethical (many death row inmates are not guilty) and financial (capital punishments likely cost more than permanent incarceration) burden it places on our justice system.
Also, why is "Thou shalt now kill" the only part of the Bible fundamentalists refuse to take too literally?
Cal
ReplyDeleteI wasn't referring to your defense of innocent victims, I was referring to your ad hominem against opponents of capital punishment- as if they wer hedging their bets in case they might want to kill someone.
Chuck Norris is Texas tough! Check out his weekly blog in which he discusses tough talk against illegals and terrorists. No joke! http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=57317
ReplyDeleteMassimo said:
ReplyDelete"Christianity is supposed to be about the relatively gentler Jesus of the New Testament superseding the paranoid, self-centered and genocidal god of the Old Testament."
Jason said:
"Have you actually read the NT and the OT ? This is a common claim but it is false."
Actually, both Massimo and Jason are correct. I say this because the New Testament is contradictory. Various stripes of Christianity interpret and cherry pick verses to match the type of Christian they want to be, the gentle Jesus is love stripe, or the vengeful "send them to hell" type of Christianity.
Yes it is true the death penalty has strong supporters among the evangelical religious right.
On the other hand, I guarantee those vigils outside of prisons protesting the death penalty on the night of an execution are also often led by people of the gentle Christian faith.
"blacks comprise 12% of the state's general population, but a whopping 41% of the prison population.
ReplyDeleteChristianity, cowboy attitude and racism welcome you to the Lone Star State – if you are white and god-fearing."
First, to be fair, let me tell you: I am a native of Texas, and support the death penalty in two circumstances: child molestation and murder-for-hire.
Now, to imply that Texas is racist and use death penalty stats as support is to confuse causation and correlation. Far be it for this high-school graduate to lecture a college professor about the "post hoc ergo propter hoc" fallacy.
I do not deny that racism exists in Texas, as it does everywhere men live. But to slur all Texans as racist is not only sloppy thinking, but personally insulting, and to be honest, I'd expected better of you.
"But to slur all Texans as racist is not only sloppy thinking, but personally insulting, and to be honest, I'd expected better of you."
ReplyDeleteThumpy, (your new nick name),
I really don't think that Massimo is claiming that all Texans are racist. While racism is everywhere, it is fair to suggest that racism is relatively stronger in some regions of the country than others.
With that said, I don't think Texas is probably anymore racist than some of the other prime suspects like Alabama or Mississippi. I also don't think that racism, or Christianity, explains the disporportionatly high number of executions in Texas, although they may be important variables.
Maybe it has to do with Texans always thinking they have to do things on a bigger scale than other states? Half joking. Only half.
"Actually, both Massimo and Jason are correct. I say this because the New Testament is contradictory. Various stripes of Christianity interpret and cherry pick verses to match the type of Christian they want to be, the gentle Jesus is love stripe, or the vengeful "send them to hell" type of Christianity."
ReplyDeleteActually Massimo is mistaken. Jesus talked more about hell and damnation than anyone else in the whole Bible.
There is no cherry picking involved.
People can disagree over the question of the appropriateness of capital punishment as still both be christians.
I am a christian and I think that capital punishment is ok in principle although it's use in practice may be problematic.
"One simple statistic is telling about Texas: blacks comprise 12% of the state's general population, but a whopping 41% of the prison population."
ReplyDeleteCan I just ask an obvious question here. I am not an American so it is asked honestly.
Is it possible that this disproportion of blacks in prison is in part because of greater criminality among blacks ?
Are the arrest rates the same ? What is the figure for number of guilty men who get off/wrong imprisoned ? Maybe this information is not available (certianly I suspect it simply isn't) but the figure itself might be "telling" but by itself I think the thing it is most "telling" about is a persons own preconceived ideas of what it means.
If black people commit more and worse crimes than other sections of the population then you would expect more of them to be imprison.
The statistic presented could work just as effectivly as an argument for greater criminality among black people as it could for an argument for some inherent injustice in the system.
There needs to be more to it than just this.
Well, I guess OJ Simpson lucked out.
ReplyDeleteHe had a racist jury, but in his favor! The rest of his life closed in an isolation cell would have been a preferred route for this criminal.
Sheldon,
ReplyDeleteYou said "...it is fair to suggest that racism is relatively stronger in some regions of the country than others", and I think that is true on a general basis. For instance, in 1997 the national leader for prosecuted hate crimes in America was Lancaster, CA. You do not see me generalizing about Californians on that basis; there are many possible reasons for that stat (more vigorous prosecution, more active community involvement, etc) that prevent any sure judgement in this case. Likewise with minority crime statistics, unless one has performed a detailed multivariate analysis, which was unfortunately lacking.
While I agree with Massimo's analysis in general, and as stated earlier, typically abjure the death penalty, I still feel he overgeneralizes in his post. Again, I do not deny the shameful fact that my home state has its share of bigoted Christians; I merely object to the insinuation that that is ALL we are. (Although M makes it clear that execution rate is declining, he attributes that, like the original author, to a demographic shift. Certainly native Texans cannot be that enlightened, no?)
This attitude is in itself a form of prejudice, and while not nearly so serious as the racism that has resulted in much greater evil, it is still prejudice, and as such it had ought to be expunged.
PS -- You can call me what you want, sheldon; I know 14 characters gets annoying to type after a while. :)
"Is it possible that this disproportion of blacks in prison is in part because of greater criminality among blacks?"
ReplyDeleteJason,
The disproportionate number of blacks in jail may indeed be an artifact of a greater rate of criminal behaviour, in fact it certainly is. But that in turn raises the quesion, why is this so?
So again, the questions are raised:
Does it have anything to do with the historical legacy of slavery, Jim Crow laws, and racsim in the U.S..
Also related, but distinct, does it have anything to do with social economic inequality,(even for poor whites), lack of opportunity, and the U.S. class system?
I would contend that it does.
Just something I am digging up from a class I took a couple years ago, so forgive me if this is incorrect:
ReplyDeleteOnce you take into account income, and maybe some variables like rural/urban, the disparity between white and black crime rates evaporates. It is my impression that foreigners are surprised the way Americans use race as a stand-in for class in this way. Though, in my experience, Europeans do the same thing with Turkish and African immigrants. Of course, the ultimate cause of blacks being disproportionately among the lower classes has its origin in racism.
Thumpy,
ReplyDeleteAfter re-reading Massimo's post, I can't find anywhere where he says that all Texans are racist and reactionary. Although I did find the cowboy hat comment stupid and suggestive of prejudice. There may be people on the east coast who have never seen a cow, but highly unlikely in Texas (or my state of Colorado, or the west in general). Out here in the U.S. Southwest the most cowboy hats I see on people are Native Americans, who have been victims of white racsim.
Racism is definitely everywhere. New York? One should familiarize themselves with the recent cases of unjustiable police brutality and shooting of African Americans there. Boston area? Research the history of school desegration there where whites had a cow over that. They just aren't that execution happy!
http://deathpenaltyinfo.msu.edu/c/states/maps/death-exe.htm
Colorado Springs is the center of the evangelical born-again movement in the U.S., and we have cowboys and racisms to. Ditto for New Mexico (Cal's home state), each of which has had only one execution. Remember the book "Whats the matter with Kansas", partly about the religious right introducing creationims into the public schools. ZERO executions! The Dakota state, one of which introduced the most draconian anti-abortion laws. ZERO executions. So the death penalty caused by evangelical Christianity does not hold water. That is based on a rather superficial analysis, but probably better than the article cited.
"For instance, in 1997 the national leader for prosecuted hate crimes in America was Lancaster, CA."
I think this fact is actually counter to the notion that CA might be more racist than other states. That is because the willingness of officials and the public to prosecute hate crimes is evidence for less tolerance of racism.
Sheldon --
ReplyDeleteAs I made clear, I am objecting to the insinuation, and not the explicit statement, that all Texans are racist.
"So, what's the matter with Texas? According to a recent article by Ed Stoddard and distributed by Reuters, the crucial factors are fundamentalist Christianity, the “Old West” mentality, and a good dose of racism – a lethal mix, as it turns out."
I see no trace of nuance in the above extract. All Texans are implicitly lumped together by the question "so what's the matter with Texas?"
"Christianity, cowboy attitude and racism welcome you to the Lone Star State – if you are white and god-fearing."
Again, no trace of nuance. I guess Austin, or Houston's Seventh Ward, or Oak Cliff don't count. I could go on, mind you. Texas has a diversity of groups and views.
While you may find the "cowboy hat" comment suggestive of prejudice, the entire blog strikes me in such a manner, and the main reason for this is that a professor of philosophy should engage in such slipshod thinking. I expect not to see such fallacies as post hoc arguments or anecdotes-as-evidence in a tightly reasoned article, and their presence causes me to question the validity of this posting. (Indeed, your final sentence takes my point exactly: that surface appearances may be terribly misleading, and require more than a facile reading.)
I must point out that I'm only taking the time to sound off like this because I've been spoiled by the normally-high standards of Massimo's blog.
Cheers to you.
Put briefly, it appears to me
Strike the last line, BTW.
ReplyDeleteI want to clear something up that I don't think anyone has mentioned. It's in regards to the whole "xenophobic, anti-immigrant" comment. I've lived in Dallas, Tx for 22 years. In that time, the illegal immigrant population has SKYROCKETED. These undocumented individuals have had a detrimental affect on the area - not because of their ethnic background - but because of the conditions they are subjected to because, essentially, our legal system doesn't apply to them. They are the most impoverished, over-worked group in the area because labor laws, again, don't apply. Being that crime is generally a problem for impoverished communities, this group tends to have at LEAST a noteworthy impact on the crime rates in the area. As anyone that works on a job site - like my father and occationally myself - can tell you, you leave something unattended for even a short amount of time and it WILL be gone. Or, for example, the paint supply store that is unfortunate enough to be located next to the alleyway where illegal workers gather for hire in the morning. Their large semi-truck has been vandalized, the wheels stolen and windows smashed, the establishment itself has been broken into at least 4 times causing thousands of dollars in damage and stolen goods. FYI - this place is located about 2 blocks from the Dallas Police Department.
ReplyDeleteAlso, the illegal immigrant population is having adverse affects on local healthcare systems.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14172601/from/RS.5/
Such a problem is simply another strain on the already outrageous and damn near defunkt American healthcare system. It's not that doctors should refuse these people, but on the other hand, where is the money going to come from? U.S. Taxplayers? A healthcare system for Non-citizens? That makes little sense. More than likely, it's coming from the middle class, many of whom already can't afford health insurance (my family being one of them).
Because of the over-abundance of cheap labor comming from undocumented immigrants, the labor market has all but completely bottomed out. It's nearly impossible to make a living from "blue-collar" work in the area because of it. A stark contrast from even 10-15 years ago.
I'm extremely liberal and I'm hugely into the freethinking movement. But, this is one case where the liberals are simply dead wrong. Show me another developed country in the world where individuals are allowed to immigrate whenever they want - as many of them as have the desire and drive to physically make the journey - while not contributing to the federal government, yet still allowed to reap at least some benefits (e.g. free/cheap health care) at the expense of citizens and legal immigrants? It's not about being "xenophobic", although I'm sure you can find some Texans that are. It's not about being "anti-immigrant", that doesn't make much sense since the U.S. is a country of immigrants. It's not about "keeping out the mexicans", because there are plenty of mexicans the immigrate legally every year and good on them. It's about the fact that we have borders and laws that are there for good reasons, and that illegal immigrants are always used as a large group of second-class-citizens that can be exploited by others seeking cheap labor regardless of the human element in the equation. This is an extremely common sense issue and i'm sick and tired of hearing prominant progressive thinkers and figureheads muddle the argument. It would be nice to have no borders and allow everyone automatic citizenship, but it doesn't work like that. Not here, not in Europe, not anywhere.
Kudos for Justin. Our liberty is premised on our national sovereignty, and killing our sovereignty through illegal immigration and free trade destroys the structural foundations of being a nation, a nation founded on an imperfect people who work to perfect the system and the people in relation to liberty.
ReplyDeleteBlacks are more likely than whites or Hispanics to be victims of crime.
From the Washington Post article about race and crime:
"* Blacks are more likely than any other group to be victims of “serious violent crime,” such as rape, assault and robbery.
"* Blacks were more than twice as likely as whites to be confronted with a firearm during a crime.
"Overall, the new Justice findings jibe with previous studies,” said the Post.
"“For example, a review of FBI data from 2004 by the Violence Policy Center, a liberal-leaning group that campaigns for stricter gun control laws, found that blacks accounted for about half of the nation’s murder victims that year.”
“Black victimization is a real problem, and it’s often black on black,” said David Harris, a law professor at the University of Toledo who studies crime statistics.
“Often”? Correction, Harris. As the Post reports and Justice concedes, in more than nine out of 10 cases, black victims are murdered by fellow blacks. "
So these black men being put to death, killed other black men or women more often than not.
The more valid question would be to what extent white murderers escaped the death penalty, both in general and comparing white-on-white murders with white-on-black murders and to what extent black on black murderers got the death penalty compared to black on white murderers?
That is where you will see whatever prejudicial attitudes come into play.
Without that analysis, you won't be able to prove that the justice system is racist.
If you want to say that the country has been historically racist and that that accounts for the different rate of committing murder between blacks and whites, so be it.
Probably, you can prove that.
But you cannot say that the justice system is prejudiced (though I believe against ALL POOR PEOPLE and people of color, yes, it is) based on race without that analysis.
"This is an extremely common sense issue and i'm sick and tired of hearing prominant progressive thinkers and figureheads muddle the argument."
ReplyDeleteJustin,
I may be wrong, without specifics cited by you, but I have a hard time understanding why you think it is progressives that are muddleing the argument. I haven't heard any progressives say that illegal immigration is not a problem. In fact I hear them making some of the same arguments you are making, and they are good ones. I do here them arguing against scapegoating immigrants, and arguing that a solution should be found that is fair to them also. They have come here because of a demand for their labor, and because NAFTA has undercut their domestic economy as well.
It is all to convenient for the ownership class to maintain their illegal second class status to keep wages low. The right wing, with their shrill rhetoric that effectively scapegoats illegal immigrants and demands mass deportation is what is muddleing the argument.
"Again, no trace of nuance. I guess Austin, or Houston's Seventh Ward, or Oak Cliff don't count. I could go on, mind you. Texas has a diversity of groups and views."
ReplyDeleteThumpy,
I will help you out. Lets not forget about Molly Ivins and Jim Hightower (and cowboy hat wearer). And what about Lyndon B. Johnson, a Texan, who signed in landmark civil rights legislation, initiated a "war on poverty", but unfortunately got sidetracked by a real war on Vietnam.
Now that I have thought more about it, perhaps Massimo has unfairly over generalized about Texas. Still the fact remains, even if you approve of the death penalty in limited cases, Texas is out of control in the number of executions.
So Massimo, what do you have to say for yourself? How about an apology for maligning some of the good people of Texas?
People should be judged by the content of their character, not by the style of their head wear, (or the state from which they come or reside).
Thumpy, Sheldon,
ReplyDeletegosh, I didn't realize (some) Texans' sensibilities were so easy to offend. Obviously, as Sheldon said, I never meant to suggest that *all* Texans are racist. That would be idiotic. However, it seems to me undeniable that Texas (which is made of Texans) has an above-average problem with racism and bigotry.
If you detected more of an edge than usual in the tone of my post it is because I didn't use to have prejudices about the South, until I lived there for nine years (including visiting Texas on several occasions).
In general, it is perfectly fare to characterize a culture by its average behavior, that's what social scientists do when they conclude that, say, "Italians" think this or that way, or that "teenagers" are more likely to engage in this or that behavior. None of this implies that everyone does it. Indeed, a large number may not do it. However, someone must have elected the recent spite of bloody governors in the Lone Star State, no?
"I wasn't referring to your defense of innocent victims, I was referring to your ad hominem against opponents of capital punishment- as if they wer hedging their bets in case they might want to kill someone."
ReplyDeleteI am not sure why anti-cap proponents want to let really bad people off the hook. Why don't you clue me in.
Last week there were two men (if you want to call them that) from las Cruses on trial for bitting, raping and then ultimately killing one of the two guys 5 month old daughter. The other man was the babies uncle, if I remember correctly.
The only defense for innocent victims, is to make sure that under no circumstances whatsoever will these men harm another person . And any person that is so hard hearted as to do these things to sweet precious child will without a doubt, HARM ANOTHER PERSON.
Why exactly don't these two deserve to die? (and worse?)
cal
Massimo:
ReplyDeleteIf you find me overly "sensitive", bear this in mind: as a native Texan living in SoCal for the last fifteen years, I'm damned well tired of having racism on my part assumed. When those stereotypes are passed around in a public forum such as this, with such thin reeds of support, they deserve to be challenged. If that makes me sensitive, so be. I note again that you assert that Texas has an "above-average" problem with racism; I could muster cogent arguments to the point that racism in Texas is on the whole average. (Please do not misunderstand me: all racism, below-, above-, or dead-average, is unacceptable.)
You state that it is perfectly fair to characterize a culture by its average behavior. To be perfectly fair, one had ought to mention both sides of the mean which produce the average.
Perhaps if you were German instead of Italian you might be more sensitive to this issue. These are issues they still deal with on occasion.
Please note, Massimo, that I have no argument at all with your main thesis. There are entirely too many executions in my home state, and, as elsewhere in America, there is certainly a racial disparity. I merely object to the facile assignation of race as the primary cause in the absence of a deeper analysis. In short, I ask for hard data.
Thank you for taking the time to reply.
Cal:
ReplyDeleteChild molestation/murder is one of the two crimes I believe call for the death penalty (the other being murder for hire).
"I am not sure why anti-cap proponents want to let really bad people off the hook. Why don't you clue me in."
ReplyDeleteCal,
This is only my opinion. First of all, letting "really bad people off the hook" is a straw man. People who do such heinious crimes should be put away forever without possibility of parole.
I myself am not against the death penalty as a matter of principle, but as a problem of practice. It may be fair to say that a perpetrator deserves to die. However, I think that the way the our criminal justice system works, there are too many tendencies towards error to risk putting possible innocent people to death. Police investigators, elected district attorneys and prosecutors are under tremendous political pressure to secure convictions. They often are not disinterested pursuers of truth. Crime scene investigators and labs are underfunded, and sometimes sloppy. People on juries are to prone to be manipulated by spurious evidence and bad arguments. All these considerations are on top of the unequal access to justice and application of the death penalty according to race and class.
In a totally different line of argument. Being an atheist, I believe that once a person dies, then that person ceases to think or to feel any pain. Being dead is of no consequence once that state of non-being is reached. So putting a murderer to death is actually "letting really bad people off the hook". They are released from having to contemplate their awful deed. It is easier being dead than having the meager existence of spending the rest of one's days in a gray little box.
From your perspective, the death penalty only extends their eternity in hell fire for a relatively insignificant period of time. Not very cost efficient if you consider that playing a part in a wrongful conviction might be risking your own eternity in hell. LOL
From your perspective, the death penalty only extends their eternity in hell fire for a relatively insignificant period of time.
ReplyDeleteHa, not even that. As I'm sure you know, some loonies sincerely (apparently) believe that you are going to heaven if you accept Jesus (some Mexican chap, I suppose) as your saviour and blah blah. No matter what. I've asked a few of such believers, and they said "yes, that's it, no matter what". Even Hitler? Even Stalin? Even the Pope? Yep...
So I guess the little grey box is more justice after all.
J.
ReplyDeleteYeah, you're right. I was considering that little inconvenient theological fact when I wrote that quip.
Seems Christians should keep that quiet in case people start thinking they can get away with murder, then accept Jesus, and get a go directly to heaven ticket!!LOL
Maybe thats what Bush was thinking?
"LOL"
ReplyDeleteYeah, its all just hysterical.
There is always the risk of a technical glitch that leads to the early or wrongful release of a seriously violent criminal. With the death penalty we never have to wonder if the worst of our violent offenders ever will hit the streets again. If it has happened once, it has happened too many times.
It also sends the message to men like I described, that there will be no three squares and bed for the rest of your life (ie. he gets taken care of by the state never has to pay a bill or take responsibility for anything). The thing you don't understand about most of the guys in prison and some of the women, is that most of them claim that they were not really responsible for "x". Given that mindset and the fact that they often seem to convince themselves of it, I don't see that most of these fellas ever are really tormented and regretful for what they have done. My husband and my families have both been "victims" if you will, of violent crime. And more often than not the majority of the sympathies or allowances go towards the offender.
You cannot tell me that enough is not done to keep these guys from death row. I don't believe it. I can't even believe that a man who tried to beat another guy's head in (as I mentioned last week) with a baseball bat (intending to kill him, I'd say) is out with retraining orders against him. Big deal. Our state is so stinking permissive it's ridiculous.
cal
"With the death penalty we never have to wonder if the worst of our violent offenders ever will hit the streets again."
ReplyDeleteAnd if the wrong guy gets the death penalty, there will never ever be a chance of setting things right.
You're also probably right Cal that a good portion of these violent criminals have no concience to bother them till the end of their days. It is unfortunate that there is no perfect justice.
Cal, where is your evidence that capital punishment acts as a deterrent? You don't have any, because there isn't any. Countries with the death penalty have far higher violent crime rates than those without, so the causes and deterrence to violent crime clearly lie elswhere.
ReplyDeleteIf it's state-sanctioned evenge you want, thugh, always remember the words of Britain's longest-serving hangman, Albert Pierrepoint: "All those in favour of capital punishment agree that it should not apply to anyone, but no two people can agree on who should be executed and who should not."
Telling wrods from a man who hanged over 600 people, including Nazi war criminals.
"Cal, where is your evidence that capital punishment acts as a deterrent? You don't have any, because there isn't any. Countries with the death penalty have far higher violent crime rates than those without, so the causes and deterrence to violent crime clearly lie elswhere."
ReplyDeleteCapital punishment certainly deters recidivism. Also, would you please support your claims about the correlation between crime and cap. punishment, say, f'rinstance country, year, and source of your numbers?
Capital punishment certainly deters recidivism.
ReplyDeleteVery true, if a truism.
But then again, the capital punishment could solve the poverty, cancer and obesity problems too, if you think of it. And dead smart arses make no bad jokes either. :O)
T,
ReplyDeleteTho the Bible is pro cap punishment, (see bottom of verses) it surprisingly does recognize subtleties in human behavior and reasons why some things may happen and makes adjustments for the "situation". I think that most people might not expect that.
Num 35:22
“ ‘But if without hostility someone suddenly shoves another or throws something at him unintentionally
Num 35:23
or, without seeing him, drops a stone on him that could kill him, and he dies, then since he was not his enemy and he did not intend to harm him,
Num 35:24
the assembly must judge between him and the avenger of blood according to these regulations.
Num 35:25
The assembly must protect the one accused of murder from the avenger of blood and send him back to the city of refuge to which he fled. He must stay there until the death of the high priest, who was anointed with the holy oil.
Num 35:26
“ ‘But if the accused ever goes outside the limits of the city of refuge to which he has fled
Num 35:27
and the avenger of blood finds him outside the city, the avenger of blood may kill the accused without being guilty of murder.
Num 35:28
The accused must stay in his city of refuge until the death of the high priest; only after the death of the high priest may he return to his own property.
Num 35:29
“ ‘These are to be legal requirements for you throughout the generations to come, wherever you live.
Num 35:30
“ ‘Anyone who kills a person is to be put to death as a murderer only on the testimony of witnesses. But no one is to be put to death on the testimony of only one witness.
Num 35:31
“ ‘Do not accept a ransom for the life of a murderer, who deserves to die. He must surely be put to death." (NIV)
I would maintain that tho it is not a popular notion these days, God is Just.
http://www.blueletterbible.org
cal
Cal --
ReplyDeleteThat, of course, presumes that god exists at all. And, with all due respect, don't you think it unkind to post bible verses on a rationalist blog in such quantity? I do have a Bible, you know. You can supply me the chapter and verse, I'll happily look it up.
Have peace.
"don't you think it unkind to post bible verses on a rationalist blog in such quantity?"
ReplyDeleteIt never occurred to me that it might be unkind. Actually if one is going to bother to respond on a matter it is best (and most kind) to be comprehensive. And am I supposed to automatically know that all rationalists would never use the Bible for pos. evidence tho they might choose to rail against it?
I'd be being soft on myself and y'all for me to just to assume that.
Don't you believe that Massimo would tend to take the evidence wherever it may lead? And no matter what the evidence happens to be?
I think that is what he would do.
you should not be afraid of this.
cal