By Massimo Pigliucci
This seems to me a very reasonable philosophical position about the epistemic domain of science: “Science simply doesn't deal with hypotheses about a guiding intelligence, or supernatural phenomena like miracles, because science is the search for rational explanations of natural phenomena. We don't reject the supernatural merely because we have an overweening philosophical commitment to materialism; we reject it because entertaining the supernatural has never helped us understand the natural world.”
This one, on the other hand, is philosophically very naive and pretentious: “Anybody doing any kind of science should abandon his or her faith if they wish to become a philosophically consistent scientist.”
The funny thing is that these two quotes come from the same person, and were written only three years apart. The first one can be found in an article published online at Edge.org in 2007, the second one is from a blog entry posted in May of this year. The author is evolutionary biologist Jerry Coyne. What is going on?
First, some context. In the Edge article Jerry was commenting on the sad showing at a Republican Presidential debate where three candidates — may their names forever be cast in shame: Senator Sam Brownback, Governor Mike Huckabee, and Representative Tom Tancredo — raised their hand in response to the question “does anyone here not believe in evolution?” Coyne focuses mostly on Brownback’s follow up editorial in the New York Times, correctly lambasting it for its bad logic and even worse grasp of science. (Here is my own take on Brownback’s editorial.)
The blog entry is from Jerry’s own outlet, Why Evolution is True (the title of his book), and is a harsh — and from what I can see, largely well deserved — criticism of Karl Giberson, who previously had chided Coyne and other New Atheists (do they or don’t they like that label? Coyne seems to use it without trouble).
My point, of course, is that Coyne’s philosophy of science has gotten significantly worse in the past three years, ever since he has discovered activist atheism. I have commented on this topic before, using the standard distinction between philosophical and methodological naturalism, and explaining why — to use Coyne’s own example — even the appearance of a 900-ft Jesus in the streets of London would not convince him (or me) that there isn’t a natural explanation for the phenomenon (see A.C. Clarke’s famous third law and of course this classic episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation). Here I am going to take a different approach and propose two more reasons why Coyne-2007 was right and Coyne-2010 is wrong.
The first reason to stick with science as an epistemic activity aimed at discovering empirical truths about the natural world is that gods are not hypotheses, to use Dawkins’ famous phrase in his book. Coyne and other scientists often dig up falsificationism from their limited inventory of philosophical knowledge and claim that the god hypothesis is falsifiable. Besides the fact that philosophers of science have moved well beyond falsificationism (to begin with, because of something known as the Duhem-Quine thesis), even for falsification to work one has to have a reasonably well defined hypothesis.
Karl Popper, the guy who invented falsificationism, famously thought that Einstein’s theory of relativity is an excellent example of science because it is eminently falsifiable. But he also rejected both Marxist theories of history and Freudian psychoanalysis as non-scientific because they were much too flexible: any historical event could somehow be interpreted as the result of class struggles, just as pretty much any human behavior can be “explained” through one type or another of sexual repression.
Conceptions of gods are infinitely more flexible (or vacuous, if you prefer) than either Marxist or Freudian theories, and they are thus simply not falsifiable. This is often (naively) mistaken to imply that no specific claim made by these theories can be rejected on empirical grounds. That’s as manifestly not true as it is besides the point: of course modern science can firmly reject the empirical claim that the earth is a few thousand years old; but since “the god hypothesis” doesn’t behave as a hypothesis at all from the epistemological standpoint, it doesn’t matter. In the cases we are discussing there is no science-like connection between theoretical constructs and empirically verifiable facts, so to “falsify” the latter is equivalent to shooting into a cloud of gas. It unnecessarily flatters and elevates religious belief to treat it as science.
The second point I wish to make is broader. Whenever I get into these discussions, Jerry and others who think along similar lines seem to conclude that I therefore do not have reasons to reject religious belief as the nonsense on stilts that it truly is. That is because they seem to equate science with reason, yet another position that is abysmally simplistic from a philosophical perspective. Science is conducted through the application of reason to a particular type of problems and in particular ways. But reason can be applied to other problems in other ways. Philosophy, of course, is an example, as it makes progress through the analysis and dissection of concepts, not via empirical discoveries. Logic and mathematics are additional obvious examples: mathematical theorems are neither discovered nor proved by using scientific methods at all. Unless one wishes to conclude that math is not a rational enterprise, then one is forced to admit that science = reason is a bad equation.
Indeed, even science itself is far from being an activity rooted in reason alone. A standard distinction in philosophy of science is made between the context of discovery and the context of justification. The first one deals with how scientists come up with new theories or ideas, the second one on how they proceed to empirically test or establish them. The notion is that the context of justification is where science works in a rational way, by logically connecting hypotheses and empirical facts. But discoveries are often haphazard and non-rational in nature, with scientists themselves being unable to account for how exactly they came up with a particular idea (often this happens during a walk, while taking a shower, while dreaming, or while on drugs — none of which are classical laboratory settings where people sit down and rationally work through the problem).
Things get even worse, as more recent suggestions, for instance that of Thomas Kuhn (whose notion of paradigm shifts is arguably the only other piece of philosophy of science of which most scientists are dimly aware) when he questioned the sharpness of the distinction between the context of discovery and the context of justification. This questioning would make Coyne and colleagues even more unhappy, because it goes in the direction of further reducing the relevance of reason to the scientific enterprise.
The two points I made here amount to claiming that many scientists do not understand the nature of science as well as philosophers do, and are hence prone to make exaggerated claims about how science works and what it can do. This should not surprise anybody, since the business of scientists is to do science, not to spend time thinking about its history and methods. That is why philosophy (and history) of science are scholarly activities that are legitimately distinct from science itself.
But when it comes to writing for the general public, I suggest that scientists stick to what they know best, unless they are willing to engage the literature of the field(s) that they wish to comment upon. When Coyne makes statements of the type “anybody doing any kind of science should abandon his or her faith if they wish to become a philosophically consistent scientist”, he literally does not know what he is talking about because he does not have a grasp of what it means to be “philosophically consistent” in this context. He has of course no obligation to study philosophy, but then he should refrain from writing about it as a matter of intellectual honesty toward his readers.
P.S.: it may be a little while before I'm able to answer your (surely numerous and critical) comments, since I’ll be on vacation in Iceland when this runs...
That's all you've got? Two statements three years apart and a dim idea that activist atheism is the causal factor? That's not scientific, rational, philosophical, logical, skeptical or anything else that you profess to be concerned with. Calling this weak tea is an insult to that fine beverage.
ReplyDeleteOh, and your point is anything but "of course." Generally, using "of course" in a thesis statement is a sign of a weak argument. As to your arguments:
1. Mentioned Popper and Kuhn.
2. Claimed that opponent doesn't understand the depth of thought on your side.
Are you trying to be the BioLogos of reconciling philosophy and activist atheism?
As for specifics:
ReplyDelete"Jerry and others who think along similar lines seem to conclude that I therefore do not have reasons to reject religious belief as the nonsense on stilts that it truly is." Example?
Can't you make a defense of your philosophy of science without your goons of Logic and Mathematics hovering over your shoulder? Citing these strong henchman does not make your philosophical arguments any better.
"[Coyne] literally does not know what he is talking about because he does not have a grasp of what it means to be “philosophically consistent” in this context." But every non-philosopher knows exactly the context in which Coyne is using "philosophically." You do have an obligation to not hijack the colloquial meaning of a word just to strut your academic knowledge around.
Rereading the post before submitting this comment, I'm struck most of all at the strawman aspect of it. Who is 'they' in your claim that "they seem to equate science with reason". If there is none, or even if people don't quite agree with your seeming, your argument seems to fall apart.
So - if I understand you correctly - would it be correct to say that "someone who wants to be consistently committed to reason should abandon his or her faith" ?
ReplyDelete@Norwegian: Citing "Logic and Mathematics" accomplishes the goal I believe Massimo was going for.. entities which exist within reason but not necessarily part of empirical science. They only strengthen his argument as a means of existence proof of accepted and practiced non-science.
ReplyDeleteAnd we can fudge a lot by using "colloquial" meanings of words (which we do all the time). What is this colloquial meaning that yields what Massimo said irrelevant?
And I second @Christof Jans's question. What does Massimo have to say about this reading of the article?
Brilliant piece. I'm partial here, but I sympathize with your impatience at unashamed philosophical naivety -I admire Coyne, though, even when he philosophizes oblivious to 'the literature'; it's refreshing and in the Witgensteinian tradition.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I do not see any substantial disagreement between your thesis and Coyne-2010 in saying that science and religion are philosophically incompatible. Rather, what you are saying in fact supports Coyne-2010 even more than anything he has said.
Let me explain. While Dawkins and the like, would like to suggest that science effectively defeats theism you say that they have a priori nothing to do with each other. In order for Dawkins to suggest that the god-hypotheis is wrong he at least needs to accept its reasonableness -its falsifiableness. But you reject even that. And on a very solid argument, BYW. Theism has no empirical content: it isn't even wrong; it's nonsense on stilts. I like the idea that god disappears from not being needed by science.
But if your thesis is correct -and I think it is- then it turns out to be way more 'actively atheistic' and radically anti-accomodationist than anything Coyne or Dawkins present, even though yours is perhaps less easily graspable to the non-philosopher. Which is the opposite of what you conclude. Some clarification?
--Who is 'they' in your claim that "they seem to equate science with reason"-- Norwegian
ReplyDeleteTake a camomile and read the post before asking rhetorical questions about a point you don't even bother to understand, such as the distinction made between domains of reason and science. 'They' = 'Jerry and others who think along similar lines'
I understand though that reading 'activist atheism' may be enough to prompt an emotional response without reading any further and engaging with anything of substance.
Massimo, let's say you're right about the claim "There is a God" being untestable.
ReplyDeleteDoes it therefore follow that Coyne is wrong to say that such a claim is inconsistent with a scientific worldview? Seems to me like making untestable claims is *very* inconsistent with a scientific worldview. I'm surprised you disagree.
Coyne seems to assert the incompatibility of science and religion based on epistemology (contrary ways of knowing; or absence of knowing in the case of religion). But I am not sure that epistemology can carry the weight. Wouldn't the incompatibility have to be logical incompatibilty? Or putting it another way, the assertions based on religion and science would have to be contradictory, not merely contrary.
ReplyDelete@Justin, the logic and math complaint is based on Massimo's frequent use of these as subdisclipines of philosophy to bolster the acheivements of philosophy. On your point, other than philosophical principle (meaning something useless in practice), it doesn't serve any purpose to omit math and logic from empirical science. "They only strengthen his argument as a means of existence proof of accepted and practiced non-science." I'm afraid I don't completely understand this sentence, but it seems to reiterate the point that logic and math are non-science, which is pointless.
ReplyDeleteJerry has said (in the context of compatibility of science and faith, after so many theists complained: of course a person could be a scientist and a beleiver), is summed up here: http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2010/07/13/my-continuing-debate-with-karl-giberson/
This post mentions a video debate that apparently isn't public yet. And here's Russell Blackford's take: http://metamagician3000.blogspot.com/2010/06/sciencereligion-compatibility-yet-again.html
It's hard to find a simple synonym for philosophical, but I'll attempt "theoretically".
"Does it therefore follow that Coyne is wrong to say that such a claim is inconsistent with a scientific worldview? Seems to me like making untestable claims is *very* inconsistent with a scientific worldview. I'm surprised you disagree."
ReplyDeleteJulia,
I don't think Massimo would disagree, but that is because the scientific worldview is a philosophical position that the scientist is not forced to take up completely.
Massimo,
ReplyDeleteI can't find the second quote you're attributing to Jerry Coyne on the blog post you link to. Did you mean to link to a different post?
Nowhere that I can find, does he say “Anybody doing any kind of science should abandon his or her faith if they wish to become a philosophically consistent scientist.” At least not from my close reading or doing a search on the page.
The closest I found was this:
"The argument is, and always has been, about whether science and faith are philosophically compatible. Do they clash because they deal with “data” in disparate ways? Do they have completely different standards for judging “truth”? I say “yes,” and assert that religious scientists exist in a state of cognitive dissonance."
Which isn't really the same thing at all. Indeed, it seems to be something you'd both agree on, right?
“Science simply doesn't deal with hypotheses about a guiding intelligence, or supernatural phenomena like miracles, because science is the search for rational explanations of natural phenomena.”
ReplyDelete"rational explanations" remains undefined here.
Michael De Dora said: "...the scientific worldview is a philosophical position that the scientist is not forced to take up completely."
ReplyDeleteOkay, sure, they're not forced to take up the scientific worldview completely -- but if they do take it up incompletely then why is it wrong to say they're being inconsistent?
It seems like I'm saying "they're being inconsistent" and you're saying "but they don't HAVE to be consistent." Which is not disagreeing with me at all.
Coyne seems to suggest that one must embrace a philosophical worldview to be a philosophically consistent scientist, while Massimo seems to suggest that in order to be a philosophically consistent scientist, all you have to do is walk the walk and talk the talk, ie do the basic everyday work of scientists. In Massimo's eye, then, a philosophically consistent scientist would not embrace Intelligent Design, but might believe in God just because he, like, does.
ReplyDeleteI think Massimo's argument is mostly right. He's right that people sometimes use the word "science" to refer to the whole science/philosophy/REASON (emphasis on the last word) enterprise. And there's a reason for this: most active skeptics seamlessly weave science and philosophy in their thinking. It would be awkward for me to try to unravel the science and philosophy in my head, if I really had to--and I bet it would be for people like Julia too.
But Massimo is right that for most people (who do not engage in the sorts of debates that we do) the word "science" does not refer to rational thinking generally. And so Massimo is, in my view, technically correct that you can be a philosophically consistent scientist and still believe in the Holy Ghost.
Mistake: I mean to say that Coyne suggests one must embrace a SCIENTIFIC worldview.
ReplyDeleteAs to Julia's last post:
The point is that what we call a "scientific worldview" is basically the view that reality-at-large can be understood mostly or wholly through scientific methods, and that this view doesn't have to be embraced to achieve philosophical consistency as a scientist.
@Ritchie the Bear: I'm having a hard time imagining what would constitute philosophical inconsistency in a scientist, if not the acceptance of an untestable claim.
ReplyDelete" I have commented on this topic before, using the standard distinction between philosophical and methodological naturalism, and explaining why — to use Coyne’s own example — even the appearance of a 900-ft Jesus in the streets of London would not convince him (or me) that there isn’t a natural explanation for the phenomenon"
ReplyDeleteI don't think the natural / supernatural distinction in particularly useful here. If someone came up with a natural mechanism for the persistence of the soul through death, it wouldn't stop it being a soul.
A 900-ft talking Jesus would certainly falsify the idea that there are no beings more advanced than us. You could have an realist vs anti-realist debate on the true nature of the vision.
It would make the existence of a god a viable hypothesis which you could then falsify by search for alternative explanations. But you would have to apply the Ken Miller criteria that the god is not deceiving you.
Julia: one could act as though untestable claims were scientific, empirically discerned truths. See: intelligent design.
ReplyDeleteSurprised I have to be the first person to say this but... um maybe his views evolved?
ReplyDeleteOne problem I have with Massimo's arguments is that he is still taking the notion of the supernatural more seriously than it should be, by even supposing that supernaturalness is a coherent concept. Things don't behave "rationally" or "irrationally" they just DO what they DO. And if God exists, God does what he does in certain ways and not others. He may still be beyond our analysis, but he would not be some sort of mystical blob of numinousness that just, like, does whatever.
ReplyDelete@Ritchie the Bear:
ReplyDelete"acting as though untestable claims are empirically discerned" = definitely inconsistent with a scientific worldview, I agree.
"acting as though untestable claims are true" = ...well, I would call that inconsistent with a scientific worldview also. But if you disagree, I guess it's not that important; just depends how we're defining "inconsistent."
Julia:
ReplyDeleteI don't think the ideas of "having a scientific worldview" (so to speak" and "being philosophically consistent as a scientist" are the same, at least in the eyes of Massimo. Massimo seems to use the latter phrase to essentially mean "accepting the methodological foundations of scientific inquiry". The former would be more strongly defined as something like "believing that science is THE method for understanding reality-at-large."
Ritchie
ReplyDeleteIF you accept that, as a matter of historical fact, science is the ONLY method we have come up so far for explaining reality-at-large, then there really is no difference. What other methods would be?
It is a simple fact that, before ID, religion never pretended to explain nature in the sense that science tries to explain nature -that would be completely anachronistic, rather it offered a rudimentary understanding of the world, a curiosity killer.
Oh what a veritable mountain of straw! I could write a paragraph of rebuttal for nearly every sentence you wrote, but it never makes any difference anyway.
ReplyDeleteShort version, for the umpteenth time: Every religion that has any relevance at all is falsifiable. There are possible religious claims that aren't (good old Last Thursdayism), but hardly anybody makes them, they are very, very, very explicitly not what Coyne and Dawkins mean, and they would be entirely irrelevant anyway and can safely be ignored by atheists, as a completely unfathomable and undemonstrable god cannot be used to justify specific policies or morals.
And yet another jab at the phrase god hypothesis! Oh joy! Perhaps you would care to read Dawkin's and Stenger's books again and pay special attention to the parts where both books painstakingly and explicitly explain that they do not deal with the unfalsifiable gods that you persistently and stubbornly conflate with the falsifiable ones.
Honestly, I also do not see the problem with the sentence that got you fired up. Coyne has very clearly spelled out what the problem is: lambasting your PhD student for accepting an idea about a process in the material world without evidence and then taking off the lab coat and accepting another process in the material world (e.g. virgin birth) without evidence is inconsistent. How can anybody seriously disagree with that?
Science gets its justification from philosophy done in a rational way. It doesn't need philosophical justification to work, but you have to do rational philosophy to grok why it works (cue sermon on map vs. territory).
ReplyDeleteBottom line: you don't have to be a rationalist (hence atheist) to do science in a rote, "it just works" sort of way. But anyone who really understands - on a gut level - WHY science is necessary, cannot possibly believe in gods.
So a religious scientist is sort of like a doctor who washes their hands because they've been taught to wash their hands. Better than the alternative, but I should really tell you about this "germ theory" thing...
On second thought, I think I can put things even more starkly.
ReplyDeleteThere are TWO potential reasons why a person might value science as a process:
(1) It just works, period.
(2) It works BECAUSE it ensures strong causal links between your beliefs, and the actual state of the world.
Religious believers and other irrationalists can value science for reason #(1), but if they understood underlying reason for science #(2), they would stop being irrationalists.
"Every religion that has any relevance at all is falsifiable. There are possible religious claims that aren't (...), but hardly anybody makes them"
ReplyDeleteWhat normal uneducated religionist makes 'falsifiable' claims? The concept does not even arise. From a religious POV infallibility is good, falsifiability is bad. For a scientifically minded person it's the exact opposite: infallibility is bad, openness to revision is good. God hypothesis is an oxymoron, because an hypothesis is something you hold provisionally, something that could be proved wrong.
Religion is most emphatically not open to revision: it has historically gone to great lengths to prevent any criticism. By contrast, the scientific worldview (suspension of judgement, welcoming of criticism, etc.) comes late and not naturally.
Science and religion really are incommensurable.
Hm. To make it a bit clearer what I mean with conflation, perhaps a simple example would be in order:
ReplyDeleteA. I hypothesize that the myth of Atlantis describes events that really happened. If that is true, then a careful scouring of the bottom of the North Atlantic should find ruins of a sunken city of significant size. If these ruins cannot be found, then it is more likely that Atlantis did not exist, and we can consider my hypothesis falsified.
Ten years pass; in the meantime, considerable amounts of grant money were invested into a careful mapping of the Atlantic ocean, and no traces of any sunken city whatsoever were discovered. The scientific establishment moves on and considers the case settled. Now let's play...
B. (Mr. Moving-the-goalposts) Atlantis did exist, certainly! The earthquake has just flattened every building completely, and you just did not look carefully enough. Or maybe it was somewhere else - did you check the Indian Ocean? Yes? Oh. Wait - maybe the Atlanteans were extraterrestrial?
C. (Mr. Rabid Creationist) All scientists are part of a conspiracy to further hedonistic and nihilistic life styles in an attempt to undermine the Judeo-Christian culture of [insert country here]. They are operating under the presupposition of a-Atlanteism, and thus do not see the sunken ruins when they are staring into their faces!
D. (Mr. Sophisticated Theologian) Oh, come on, how can you be so unsophisticated? Searching for physical evidence with the clumsy tools of science? Pfff. Everyone knows that Atlantis was only a metaphor anyway, and it is much more important what universal truths about the human condition we derive from the story of Atlantis. Oh, but I am totally going to tell my congregation next sunday that Atlantis really existed. Don't want to drive them into the arms of the fundies, do we?
Now Massimo, your position is essentially that Coyne is forbidden to consider A a valid hypothesis simply because there are people who promote B-D without being laughed at. And you think Coyne is forbidden to laugh at B-D because he is not a philosopher. And that only philosophers may reject the existence of Atlantis. And even that considering A as a hypothesis somehow disparages philosophy, for some reason which I never quite understood.
By the way, sometimes it seems I should have become a programmer or something. At least they don't have "philosphers of programming" sneering down at them and telling them that they don't really know what programming is about.
Winstanley:
ReplyDeleteThe point is, you can take a religious claim at its word and try to corroborate or falsify it. See my previous post.
Our morals come from god; immaterial souls carrying our character traits exist; prayers work; the Israelites wandered through the desert, and king David built a great empire; when Jesus was resurrected, there was an earthquake and other dead people would also raise and wander through the streets; immorality causes natural disasters. These are no strawmen but actual claims made by actual believers all over the world at this very moment, and they can all be examined and falsified (beyond reasonable doubt, which is all you ever get in science, no matter what the issue).
If somebody does not make any such claim at all, simply sitting there and going "there must be some higher intelligence behind the universe, but we can never understand its intentions", then I say, okay, fine, whatever, and can rest assured that this ineffable being is too ineffable to dictate the stoning of homosexuals or the covering up of women. Ineffable is just another word for irrelevant.
Massimo, I am confused by this post. You criticized Jerry Coyne for his lack of sophistication in philosophy. Since you know philosophy I suppose you have good reasons to say that. But what is wrong with the sentence "Anybody doing any kind of science should abandon his or her faith if they wish to become a philosophically consistent scientist.”? I can't seem to find anything wrong with it, even after reading your post.
ReplyDeleteSo what religious faith do you think a scientist doesn't have to abandon to be consistent? Please name one. From your post all I can think of is "last thursdayism". Ie. It is ok for a scientist to have faith in the idea that the world was created last Thursday. I don't think so. If I am interviewing a graduate student and if I find out that he believes in Last Thursdayism, sorry I don't think he will get a PhD in any brach of science. Am I philosophically unsophisticated for doing that?
Alex SL (formerly Mintman): Being sneered at by philosophers certainly is something one has to think about when choosing an academic career. Science is generally liable to The Attack of the Philosophers, but biology is the most vulnerable. Geologists and oceanographers somehow don't have to worry too much about this risk. Mathematics and physics are risky too. But computer science is basically ok. Mathematicians sometimes hide themselves in departments of computer science just to avoid this hassle. In humanities: linguistics, history and law are to be avoided. Art is no good either (except film schools). Literature and social studies love philosophers. That's why philosophers don't go there.
ReplyDeleteMedical schools and management schools I believe are totally free from philosophers. Somehow the more philosophically minded person can't survive there.
opticalradiation:
ReplyDeleteSounds as if someone could try to build a distribution model for philosophers given enough environmental information on the various branches of science and your absence/presence data. And then we could see how the species would react if the intellectual environment in, say, geology would change into that direction or another... promising stuff.
Coyne may have meant something slightly different by "philosophically consistent." Perhaps you are right that it is the wrong choice of words -- being a philosopher I suppose you would know! But I'm having trouble coming up with a better adjective than "philosophical" to describe this distinction.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, here's the problem: Coyne and others assert that science and faith are incompatible. A different group asks, how can you say that when there are so many religious scientists? Coyne replies, "I am not making an empirical claim of incompatibility, but a philosophical claim of incompatibility." I'm sure it is clear what he is trying to say... if "philosophical" is the wrong word, what would you suggest?
Does anyone else like reading maybe 1 paragraph, tops, of the blog entry, then click on the comments and review enough of them to see if its worth jumping back to finish the blog?
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone simply comment on a comment without even bothering to read the blog? "That", he said with a decidedly judgmental tone, "would be wrong."
So much internet philosophy, so little time.
"Every religion that has any relevance at all is falsifiable." - Alex SL
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure how that works. How about this popular Christian proposition.
"A perfect ideal is a necessary condition for making an ethical decision." - a religious proposition.
How do we falsify this proposition?
Jmaes: I don't have a perfect ideal. I make ethical decisions. Therefore ideal is not necessary. Isn't that falsified?
ReplyDeleteJames:
ReplyDeleteThat does not sound like a religious claim to me; there is no soul, deity, prophet, miracle, oracle, afterlife, angel or demon involved. Sounds more like moral philosophy.
And it ticks me off, by the way, that Christians indeed often claim that a proposition like that would be "Christian". Does advocating it make you a Christian even if you consider Jesus a fraud? Does rejecting it make you a heathen even if you believe that Jesus is the son of God Almighty? Please.
Massimo: "I have commented on this topic before, using the standard distinction between philosophical and methodological naturalism."
ReplyDeleteMethodological naturalism is only one school of thought on the scientific method. There are others - namely, the school of critical rationalism, which holds that the "demarcation between natural and supernatural explanations is arbitrary." (source: Wikipedia: "Science")
Massimo: "Karl Popper, the guy who invented falsificationism, famously thought that Einstein’s theory of relativity is an excellent example of science because it is eminently falsifiable."
Karl Popper is also the guy who proposed the above mentioned school of critical rationalism (falsificationism being one of its chief tenets).
Massimo: "When Coyne makes statements of the type “anybody doing any kind of science should abandon his or her faith if they wish to become a philosophically consistent scientist”, he literally does not know what he is talking about because he does not have a grasp of what it means to be “philosophically consistent” in this context."
It really does appear to me that you are simply giving lip service to this distinction. The bottom line is that you are as much as a hard-core materialist as Coyne.
Julia: "Does it therefore follow that Coyne is wrong to say that such a claim is inconsistent with a scientific worldview? Seems to me like making untestable claims is *very* inconsistent with a scientific worldview."
ReplyDeleteThis depends on how you define the "scientific worldview." If you define it as being interchangeable with "scientific materialism," then belief in a divine or spiritual reality would be inconsistent with a scientific worldview. That being said, I would argue that scientific materialism is actually inconsistent with contemporary science.
Massimo: I read your posts a few more times but I still can't figure out what you are trying to say. You made a big deal out of falsification. What does that have to do with anything in Jerry's blogpost that you cited? He did not mention falsification at all. What did Jerry Coyne said about falsification that is so unsophisticated that you felt compelled to correct him? I failed to find any in that particular post. It was Richard Dawkins who talked about the "god hypothesis". Jerry is not Richard. Jerry did talk about the supersized Jesus but that has nothing to do with "Anybody doing any kind of science should abandon his or her faith if they wish to become a philosophically consistent scientist.” The only reason you bring falsification up seems to be to mock him. Why can't you criticize what he actually wrote in that piece? You are a philosopher. You are supposed to be able to make arguments.
ReplyDelete@opticalradiation:
ReplyDeleteThe Christian Idealist might argue: the only way to gauge whether or not a decision is ethical is by contrasting it against a perfect ideal. If you do not have a perfect ideal, then you do not make ethical decisions, and if you do make a decision that happens to be ethical, it's only by coincidence.
It might help to think of it this way: "making" an ethical decision really means "identifying" a decision as ethical. Your suggested method of falsification presupposes a method of verifying the ethical value of decisions, and that method (whatever it may be) presupposes that there are means other than perfect ideals - which is exactly what the proposition we're trying to falsify claims there are not. So, we can't really falsify a means of verification using a means of verification that assumes the former means is false. It's viscously circular in a weird sort of way.
Certainly, you could respond that the initial proposition was circular in the first place, so, must be false. And that's all fine, but that's logic, not science. I don't think ethical propositions are scientifically falsifiable unless the proposition contains the means of falsifying itself in the natural world. I personally tend to not take such propositions seriously, but not because I can falsify them, but because I can't (except of course, when I do take unfalsifiable propositions seriously - because I'm an unsalvageable hypocrite). But more to the point, religions often make ethical edicts which are similarly difficult to falsify, for much the same reason.
James: I don't think that works. "the only way to gauge whether or not a decision is ethical is by contrasting it against a perfect ideal" is empirically false. Gather a panel of idealist. Ask them to select from a large description of events those that they consider ethical. If the proposition is correct, the selected people will cite a perfect ideal as the reason for their decision. Count the number. That number will be very low. Claim falsified. This is called psychology.
ReplyDeleteNow, you may say those people did not make decisions. That won't work. There is no reason to say why those are not decision a priori.
You may say their decisions are coincidence. Ok do the experiment again and again. Repeat 100 times. You'll get the same data. That is not a coincidence.
"The point is, you can take a religious claim at its word and try to corroborate or falsify it"
ReplyDeleteYes you can do that. You can be a real scientist and examine the waffle in a lab to 'corroborate or falsify' transubstantiation. By all means go ahead. You might not be taken very seriously by your colleagues, though.
For most reasonable people the way the Catholic Church protects her tenent is more than enough. As Hitchens says: "All religions take care to silence or to execute those who question them (and I choose to regard this recurrent tendency as a sign of their weakness rather than their strength)."
Every time I read Pigliucci trying to piece apart the positions of Dawkins, PZ, or Coyne it seems like hes trying really, really hard to find something to complain about.
ReplyDeleteI suppose he views this as his duty as a public intellectual or philosopher - to question even the most respected thinkers who are for the most part in agreement with him- but honestly it has always seems as though he is splitting hairs and grasping at straws.
The all important question is: "can it still be called scientism if the appeal to science is inclusive of non-scientific ways of thinking?"
ReplyDeleteMassimo. I'm afraid your position doesn't seem much less philosophically naive than Jerry's. And I think Jerry's--naive or not--is nearer to the truth.
ReplyDeleteYou insist on a simplistic demarcation line between science and philosophy, based on an undefined natural/supernatural dichotomy. The only times I've seen you attempt to defend this demarcation criterion, e.g. in a recent podcast, you've instead fallen back on arguing that lastthursdayist claims cannot be addressed by science. Even if we accept that, it doesn't follow that supernatural claims cannot be addressed by science.
You claim above that "philosophy... makes progress through the analysis and dissection of concepts, not via empirical discoveries." I would agree that philosophers tend to be concerned with matters where conceptual issues play a greater role, while scientists tend to be concerned with matters which are more empirically testable. That is, I think, the essence of the distinction between science and philosophy. But if you're claiming this to be a strict dichotomy, then you're wrong. It's a matter of degree. How could philosophers of science get started without making empirical observations of scientific progress? There may be some areas of philosphy that can be completely divorced from empirical reality (like pure mathematics), but most of philosophy is concerned with learning about the world from empirical observations. As such it is contiguous with science.
Why is it so important whether an inference is labelled "scientific" or "philosophical"? What does this distinction communicate? As far as I can see, the main reason this issue excites so much hot air is that the word "science" has much more favourable connotations than the word "philosophy". To say that the case against God is a "scientific" one seems to imbue it with more authority. Perhaps it's also that some philosophers want to claim authority over scientists in this area.
Apart from this, the question seems unimportant. What really matters is whether there is a good rational case against supernatural entities. There is probably little difference between the reasoning that leads you and Jerry to reject the existence of supernatural entities. The dispute seems to be just over whether such reasoning should be labelled "scientific" or "philosophical".
I think the experience of scientists at making inferences about the world equips them pretty well for correctly inferring the falsehood of religious beliefs, and that's why there is a larger proportion of atheists among scientists than among non-scientists. But scientists are not necessarily good at articulating the logic behind such inferences, and Dawkins in my view is an example of this. I would expect a philosopher with a good understanding of epistemology to do better.
Julia said: "Seems to me like making untestable claims is *very* inconsistent with a scientific worldview."
ReplyDeleteIf you mean, as I presume you do, empirically untestable. Now consider this claim: 1) Any claim that is part of a scientific worldview must be empirically testable.
Is 1) empirically testable? And another question: could this claim be part of a scientific worldview: 2) There is no greatest prime number. 2), like many mathematical claims, is provable, but not empirically testable. So it can't be part of a scientific worldview?
"Ask them to select from a large description of events those that they consider ethical. If the proposition is correct, the selected people will cite a perfect ideal as the reason for their decision. Count the number. That number will be very low. Claim falsified. This is called psychology." - opticalradiation
ReplyDeleteMaybe some background is in order - this is Kantian, and I'm not really an expert in this stuff, so, thanks for your patience in advance (and don't expect a lot of text references, though I'm pretty sure the bit on ideals is in the Critique of Pure Reason).
A "perfect ideal" is really just the name of the abstract source of good states. If you ask a bunch of people - yourself included - to explain their ethical choices, they will all respond with some version of either "this event was worse than the imagined opposite," or "this event was better than the imagined opposite." This general intuition is extrapolated to conclude that the knowledge of an object's good or bad is derived from the contemplation of its opposite. The claim I'm talking about lies behind this, and states that the ability to judge ethically between an object and its opposite necessitates a third object against which these two can be measured. We can call it a necessary condition of moral judgement.
Quick thought experiment that might or might not help: you've never seen colours before. I hand you a red apple and a green apple, and ask you to tell me which is the red apple. You, of course, don't know, because you've never seen colours before. I then show you a third apple, a red apple, and I say "this is a red apple." Suddenly, you can tell me which of the two original apples was red.
The perfect ideal is the source of the second red apple (itself a particular ideal), shown to us, in its general form, in God's example - whether we're consciously aware of this source or not. At least, so goes the argument.
There are tons of problems with this kind of reasoning, but because this claim concerns knowledge that is antecedent to experience, none of those problems involve falsifying the claim. It is not a falsifiable claim - at least, not empirically falsifiable.
...boy, I am rambling on, aren't I?
Julia: "I'm having a hard time imagining what would constitute philosophical inconsistency in a scientist, if not the acceptance of an untestable claim."
ReplyDeleteThe scientific worldview includes ‘best explanation to the cause’ values such as accuracy, consistency, parsimony, scope, etc. If a theory violates a value for a non-value--like parsimony for narrative in Last Thursdayism--that constitutes a philosophical inconsistency.
Hi Massimo,
ReplyDeleteI think you have to narrow a definition of science. The main business of science of course is testing hypotheses empirically, but I think most scientist would agree that skepticism, logic (albeit informal) en mathematics are also part of what we call ‘science’. This blurs the clear distinction you’re trying to make, namely between science on the one hand and philosophy (or reason in general) on the other. Science is never devoid of philosophy, so you can’t separate the two as neatly as you’re trying. This knowledge of philosophy of scientists is often pretty naïve (if they are aware of it al all), I agree with you on that.
I also think that science should, in principle, not be restricted to natural explanations and causes only (methodological naturalism). Anything or anyone (including gods) that has an empirical effect on our world could be tested scientifically, at least in principle. Religions make a lot of claims with empirical effects (especially divine intervention). In fact, multiple studies on the effect of intercessory prayer have been published in respected journals, for example this one. What if this study showed a (huge) effect of prayer? And what if other studies confirmed these results? A naturalistic explanation would be very improbable indeed. The most reasonable conclusion would be that some supernatural force, probably (a) God, did interfere in our world.
Other examples could easily be given. What if, after saying some Christian prayer, water could be really turned into wine? This also could be scientifically demonstrated, one could even do chemistry experiments. Again a natural explanation is very unlikely and a supernatural one, presumably the Christian God, is likely. Or what if it could be scientifically demonstrated that the mind could function in separation form the brain, as many people of faith claim? The experiment is not hard to set up, but the results would be hard to explain naturalistically, and a supernatural explanation would be reasonable. All these experiments could be done according to regular scientific principles, which means that the a priori exclusion of the supernatural is unnecessary. The reason we should not invest in these kind of experiments is not an a priori commitment to (methodological) naturalism, but because the supernatural has a bad track record and doesn’t seams to provide fruitful research programs.
Of course, the believer could retort by some ad hoc explanation, but how is this different from believers in homeopathy, who also invent ad hoc explanations to explain away the scientific evidence that homeopathy doesn’t work? If time after time the evidence for a claim is lacking when it should be there, it is perfectly reasonable in science to say that the claim is false (to a certain degree of certainty of course, for science is always tentative). This has also been done for homeopathy.
Does this show that God does not exist? That’s a bit more complicated, for it depends on what one means by the word ‘God’. Most believers adhere to a religion with a God that intervenes in this world through miracles, prayer, revelation et cetera, by which their religion enters the domain of science. All these claims could be empirically tested, and have (hitherto) failed, which means that there probably isn’t a god who intervenes in our world. Only a god who hasn’t got any interaction with our world would be out of the domain of science, but such a God doesn’t seams to have many adherents.
At last there is scientific background knowledge, which also can constitute scientific problems for religion. Take for example the claim the God only has a mind (i.e. no accompanying brain). From the neurosciences we know very well that a mind is dependent on a (correctly functioning) brain. A mind without a brain is therefore unlikely.
(see next post)
From al the above the following can be concluded. Science has (hitherto) shown that there is no evidence of divine interaction, while it should be there according to the believers. Therefore, a God that has interaction with his world probably doesn’t exist. Furthermore, scientific background knowledge makes the existence of the ultimate Mind improbable. This is the complicated way of saying that science and (almost any) religion are in conflict and God – as conceived by most believers – probably doesn’t exist. From what I’ve read from Coyne, this is also what he says.
ReplyDeleteWith kind regards,
Bart Klink
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/bart_klink/
James:
ReplyDeleteThis line of thought is based on the underlying assumption that we do actually derive notions of good and bad from thinking them through. Looking at our own and other humans' behaviour we easily see that this is plainly not the case (at least most of the time).
Just for starters, a newborn baby soon feels that hunger is bad even if it has never had a full stomach before. Many other judgments are also hardwired into us, and others are learned but not by arriving at an intellectually satisfying conclusion, but rather by being penalized by your peers for doing the wrong thing. The real world is messy like that.
I think you missed it with this one Massimo.
ReplyDeleteCoyne's fault was in the three year delay. He should have made the statements back to back in the first place.
The first one, having been demonstrated with such an unprecedented level of repeatability, makes the second one a logical conclusion.
Coyne didn't suffer from inconsistency, he suffered from identity bias: That the second would be so obvious from the first that to state it would seem insulting.
Palsey makes a significant claim that "scientific materialism is not relevant to modern science" (I paraphrase). On the face of it, that seems to be utterly ridiculous.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I may just be ignorant - being a scientist, and not a philosopher of science. Is this an actual position held by a significant number of philosophers of science? Can anyone elaborate on this? What is the reasonining involved? Perhaps a link to good reading on the topic?
Massimo,
ReplyDeletein order to move this discussion beyond jerry coyne and demonstrate your point more forcefullyi think the following is needed:
1. defend your your distinction between philosophy and science from ophelia benson (http://www.butterfliesandwheels.org/2009/dont-cross-that-line/) and Russell blackford
(http://metamagician3000.blogspot.com/2010/06/sciencereligion-compatibility-yet-again.html)
2. define and defend a better philosophy of science than naive popperian notion of falsification that you think should be widely adopted by scientists.
3.define god(s) and show us what philosophy can say about such a concept(s)
4. define the supernatural. for contrast see richard carrier definition (http://richardcarrier.blogspot.com/2007/01/defining-supernatural.html)
5. how do you defend a distinction between philosophical and methodological naturalism in light of essays on the topic by barbara forest (http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/barbara_forrest/naturalism.html) and
Konrad Talmont-Kaminski (http://deisidaimon.wordpress.com/2010/06/24/scientific-presuppositions-and-the-supernatural/).
i think addressing these issues in a clear way will go a far way in showing the philosophical naivety of the new atheist.
JHSteinberg: "Palsey makes a significant claim that "scientific materialism is not relevant to modern science" (I paraphrase). On the face of it, that seems to be utterly ridiculous."
ReplyDeleteI assume that you are referring to my previous post. That is not exactly what I stated. At any rate, "scientific materialism" is a metaphysical belief, not a scientifically-established fact. And I stand by my previous post..."scientific materialism is actually inconsistent with contemporary science."
I think it's "philosophically consistent" to examine one's own supernatural beliefs using the same method one uses to examine other myths, legends, and supernatural beliefs. Therefore, a "philosophically consistent" scientist should reject his own faith-based beliefs for the same reasons he rejects other faith-based beliefs... unless his method involves something like, "it's true if it feels true --if it 'resonates' with me." But if that's his method, it sure isn't "scientifically consistent". After all the earth "feels" flat and immobile.
ReplyDeleteIf an idea can't be tested, then there is not enough evidence to warrant a claim of knowledge.
I thought Jerry's debate with Giberson illustrated this rather well: http://www.usatoday.com/video/index.htm?bctid=424695330001
But then, the only philosophers I can really understand are Dennett and Bertrand Russel. A philosopher tried to make a similar point as Massimo (I think) in this recent podcast I heard http://www.irreligiosophy.com/?p=1361 , but he sounds as muddled to me as Massimo does in this article. I know Massimo thinks that it's Jerry that is confused. But I find Jerry's viewpoint much easier to parse than Massimo's. I guess I care more about the best method for understanding reality-- and not really the intricacies of philosophy so much.
But I would like to know how a "philosophically consistent scientist" could come to believe in his particular brand of "magic" while rejecting all conflicting supernatural claims and other faith-based notions? How do you decide which invisible immeasurable beings, forces, and events to believe in and which to reject? What "philosophy" is consistent with such specious reasoning? Post modernism? Is that scientifically consistent.? Should Jerry just point out that religious scientists was just being "inconsistent" when it came to his methods in knowing about reality and not "PHILOSOPHICALLY inconsistent"?
Massimo,
ReplyDeleteOk, Coyne's 2010 statement is less than clear. To get things straight, would you agree with the following : to endorse a claim that, if true, would have been corroborated by now through scientific investigation, but as a matter of fact hasn't, is incompatible with the scientific attitude.
Frankly, I don't see how you could disagree here. There is only one step left to take: the God that your average religious person believes in fits that bill, because He supposedly performs act in the natural world (miracles, healing, answering prayer) that are perfectly amenable to scientific investigation.
To be sure, two other options are available for the religious believer: (i) retreating to a perfect conspiracy of a trickster God (Last Thursdayism) (ii) retreating to a God that is completely isolated from the natural world and that cannot interact with it in any way. (but why should we have any interest in such a God?)
Only THOSE two conceptions of God are intrinsically and by definition unfalsifiable, NOT supernatural claims per se. To equate all religion with these two borderline cases just will not do.
I fully agree with Bart Klink on methodological naturalism. MN is not an intrinsic and self-imposed limitation of science, but rather a provisory and empirically grounded attitude of scientists, justified in virtue of the consistent success of naturalistic explanations. In fact, I recently published a paper in Foundations of Science containing many similar arguments: http://www.springerlink.com/content/4n47717420j6437l/Final draft available here: http://sites.google.com/site/maartenboudry/teksten-1/methodological-naturalism
James: I haven't read any Kant. If that is what Kant is about, I am SO glad that I don't have to read that crap.
ReplyDeletePhiwilli asked about my argument that making untestable claims is inconsistent with a scientific worldview.
ReplyDeleteFirst, yes, I did mean empirically untestable. And to be even more precise, I should have said, "making untestable claims about what exists in the world is inconsistent with a scientific worldview." So that would of course still allow for claims about math or logic (which you asked about).
Alex SL, Ritchie the Bear, downquark, and others have argued that Massimo's distinction between natural and supernatural claims is an empty one, and I agree. I was just trying to avoid that line of argument because we've argued this point many times before with Massimo, without any resolution.
ReplyDeleteAnd also, I thought we could avoid that issue because even if we allow Massimo his claim that supernatural beliefs are untestable, his argument in this post can still be challenged, by arguing that scientists who hold untestable beliefs are being philosophically inconsistent.
Of course, there are different plausible definitions of what constitutes "philosophical consistency" for a scientist, as we've discovered in this thread -- Massimo's definition of "philosophical consistency" for scientists seems to allow belief in the existence of untestable entities, and Coyne's doesn't.
And I'm not arguing Coyne's definition is THE only way one could define philosophical consistency for a scientist, but it does seem clear that it's one reasonable definition, reasonable enough that it doesn't deserve to be called "pretentious and naive."
articullett: "Therefore, a "philosophically consistent" scientist should reject his own faith-based beliefs for the same reasons he rejects other faith-based beliefs."
ReplyDeleteThe phrase "faith-based beliefs" appears to me to be a tautology.
articullett: "If an idea can't be tested, then there is not enough evidence to warrant a claim of knowledge."
That's why they're called beliefs. Also, what qualifies as "enough evidence" is largely subjective.
articullett: "But then, the only philosophers I can really understand are Dennett and Bertrand Russel."
That's interesting. I find Dennett's claim that "consciousness and subjective experiences are purely illusory" to be unintelligible. (His book "Consciousness Explained" should have been entitled "Consciousness Explained Away.") On the other hand, I have no problem accepting Russell's metaphysical position of neutral monism/panexperientialism.
articullett: "How do you decide which invisible immeasurable beings, forces, and events to believe in and which to reject?"
If I observe physical events occurring without physical causes, then I feel it is fairly safe to assume that they have nonphysical causes.
Coyne has responded. And his <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/video/index.htm?bctid=424695330001>video chat</a> with Giberson is online.
ReplyDelete@Winstanley: thanks, but I prefer Earl Grey.
"Massimo's definition of 'philosophical consistency' for scientists seems to allow belief in the existence of untestable entities, and Coyne's doesn't."
ReplyDeleteBecause Coyne seems to blur the line between the practice of science and the broader scientific worldview. There is a difference between holding claims to empirical testing (not all claims can be handled in such a way) and holding claims against concepts like reason (because they can be subject to evidence and argumentation, but they are not subject to testing by empirical evidence). It is very much like the difference between skeptical inquiry (science-based) and skepticism (philosophy informed by science).
@Michael -- Yes of course, Coyne was using a broader definition of "philosophical consistency" for a scientist. His definition goes beyond whether they practice science successfully and get the right answers to scientific questions -- his definition also includes whether they accept fundamental principles of epistemology (like, we have no reason to claim the existence of undetectable entities).
ReplyDeleteAnd like I said, Massimo can use a narrower definition of "philosophical consistency", one which focuses just on whether a scientist practices science well, but it's not like Massimo's narrower definition is obviously right and Coyne's broader definition is obviously wrong. One's narrower, one's broader.
So I don't see Massimo's justification for calling Coyne's broader definition "pretentious and naive."
"If I observe physical events occurring without physical causes, then I feel it is fairly safe to assume that they have nonphysical causes."
ReplyDeleteThe problem with this type of thinking is that if you lived a thousand years ago you would all sorts of beliefs in the supernatural that we now have naturalistic explanations for.
It seems as if Massimo has a huge problem with people stepping beyond their normal expertise, and for some people his beef is almost personal. I guess to be able to speak on all topics you just need to have a PhD is science, philosophy and be a skeptic.
ReplyDeleteI think Masismo is stretching it a bit for this blog entry. It is obvious that the idea of an ominopotent god in a vacuum is beyond the realm of science (I don't think actually believes in such a god), but to the extent that this god is part of a religion, science can inform about the claims. If many of the major claims made by a religious text turn out to be false, then how is it rational to believe in that god? It is not rational, and this can be informed by science. This is not a purely scientific question, but very few things are.
@Maarten
ReplyDeleteI read your paper when Taner Edis blogged about it a few weeks ago. In case you're interested, I posted some comments about it there:
http://secularoutpost.infidels.org/2010/06/methodological-naturalism.html
I liked the paper and agreed with your conclusions, but had a couple of minor criticisms.
While Massimo appears to know his stuff, so much of this post comes across as a sort of philosopher's spelling flame, pedantically lashing out at some perceived semantic flaw rather than addressing the content and intent of Jerry's message. Jerry's intent seems pretty clear to me and others so if he has misspoke then instead of indulging in a long diatribe against amateurs, why not redirect that anger into informing us of his failings and then go on to deal with his actual arguments.
ReplyDeleteFor a start:
* is personal revelation, dogma, authority and faith as a mechanism for determining truth compatible with empiricism and sceptical inquiry?
* are there widely accepted mechanisms for detecting fraud or errors and mistakes in theology or religious belief?
* how do these "gaps" in the scientific system (such as some foundational assumptions) compare to the required assumptions in religion?
* how do the beliefs and conclusions of religion and science compare, and are they consistent/compatible where they overlap?
It appears to me as if Massimo is making this personal and using it as an excuse for attacking Jerry rather than taking any time to deal with the many issues. Worse, I think Massimo is picking at some very small nits and blowing them out of proportion in order to avoid dealing with the real and substantial issues raised. It looks like a diversion. Perhaps it isn't intended and perhaps these semantic issues are a pet peeve which make him act irrationally but to outsiders like me who see this happening over and over, it's hard to not believe that Massimo can still remain unaware that he has failed to address these points, and that by avoiding them, he appears as if he cannot answer them.
To make matters worse, Jerry and now Julia and others are able to simply and clearly express the incompatibilities while Massimo and supporters have no response but to attack science.
Well stated Julia.
ReplyDelete@Paisley
"If I observe physical events occurring without physical causes, then I feel it is fairly safe to assume that they have nonphysical causes."
CCbowers, above, answered this nicely.
I would add that this type of thinking is also what leads to prolonging of belief in the soul and libertarian free will. We (consciously) experience an openness before us, we experience choosing between multiple open possibilities, but many of the causes (other brain events, historical environmental conditioning, innate structures, situation factors, etc.) of our choosing are transparent to us. Since "we" do not "observe" all the causes that go into our choices (and cannot observe all the causes), we assume that the whole of the choice, or the crux of the choice, are made ex nihilo by "us," and we hence turn that "us" into a transcendental entity, the soul.
ccbowers: "The problem with this type of thinking is that if you lived a thousand years ago you would all sorts of beliefs in the supernatural that we now have naturalistic explanations for."
ReplyDeleteThere is no materialistic explanation for either quantum indeterminacy or quantum entanglement. Your refusal to acknowledge this fact does not change the fact. It simply reveals that you are clinging to a faith-based commitment to materialism.
Regarding Massimo's statement that conceptions of gods are not falsifiable, Coyne states in his blog, “Sweet Jebus, I have dealt with this before, and Pigliucci knows it. Once again: yes, one cannot falsify the idea that there is a transcendent being. But one can falsify the idea that there is a transcendent being who, it is claimed, does specific things."
ReplyDeleteCoyne's claim that one can engage in testing of some supernatural being as a causal factor is, however, incorrect. To test such a theory of supernatural causation requires the more general theory that supernatural entities exist and that they have the capacity to effect causes in the natural realm. Coyne is only claiming that causal relations can be tested, but this only makes sense if the more general theories have already been tested, which they haven't and can't. Further, to actually carry out the legitimate test Coyne claims leads to falsification, we would have to have empirical evidence of the presence of the entity in question, and look for that entity's ability to be a part of the initial causal conditions that lead to the predicted effects.
We have no way to develop a valid test that Coyne purports to be possible.
The questions whether God exists, and whether one should be religious, seem to induce histrionics from certain of those on both sides of these futile and silly debates. We humans, and I think philosophers in particular, and even scientists, are quite capable of divorcing our conduct in "ordinary day to day life" from our most cherished beliefs and theories. It should surprise nobody that there are good scientists who believe in God, nor should it be a matter of concern in itself. Concern is justified here only when people start demanding that others think and do as they do.
ReplyDeleteLyndon: "I would add that this type of thinking is also what leads to prolonging of belief in the soul and libertarian free will. We (consciously) experience an openness before us, we experience choosing between multiple open possibilities, but many of the causes (other brain events, historical environmental conditioning, innate structures, situation factors, etc.) of our choosing are transparent to us. Since "we" do not "observe" all the causes that go into our choices (and cannot observe all the causes), we assume that the whole of the choice, or the crux of the choice, are made ex nihilo by "us," and we hence turn that "us" into a transcendental entity, the soul."
ReplyDeleteI basically agree. The universal belief in an immaterial soul is based (at least partially) on our first-person experience of libertarian free will. IOW, dualism is based on EMPIRICAL evidence! If materialists (such as yourself) believe that free will is purely illusory, then the onus is upon them (and you) to prove that it is. I am certainly not about to deny my first-person experiences simply because it does not accord with your faith-commitment to materialism.
Kirk,
ReplyDeleteTo test such a theory of supernatural causation requires the more general theory that supernatural entities exist and that they have the capacity to effect causes in the natural realm. Coyne is only claiming that causal relations can be tested, but this only makes sense if the more general theories have already been tested, which they haven't and can't.
I think you're mistaken.
If I claim, as some believers do, that prayer often results in miraculous healings then we can test to see if prayer results in any significant improvement in patient outcomes.
In many ways I think you've got the process backwards. Before positing the existence of an entity such as a god, it's not just reasonable but desirable to have a list of phenomena which this entity can help explain.
No one set out to prove the existence of protons before experiments like the Rutherford electron scattering experiment showed that there was a need. You seem to be saying that Rutherford couldn't have asked meaningful questions about the atom without first having a theory of all of its properties.
"because it goes in the direction of further reducing the relevance of reason to the scientific enterprise."
ReplyDeleteHilarious nonsense.
"The two points I made here amount to claiming that many scientists do not understand the nature of science as well as philosophers do."
This seems false based on your pontification and his response.
"he does not have a grasp of what it means to be “philosophically consistent” in this context."
Your opinion is noted and his response indicates that your opinion has no basis. How have you defined "philosophically consistent"?
"he should refrain from writing about it as a matter of intellectual honesty toward his readers."
Hilarious. Perhaps you should refrain from writing about it.
Massimo, I think you are becoming a Militant Philosopher or a New Philosopher.
ReplyDelete"This line of thought is based on the underlying assumption that we do actually derive notions of good and bad from thinking them through." - Alex SL
ReplyDeleteNo. It's not. As I said, you don't have to be conscious of the pre-exiting ability to make moral judgments; however, your suggested method of falsification did rely on the assumption that people are accurately conscious of their moral choices. Regardless, the uncovering of logical assumptions is an a priori argument, not a form of falsification, which is the point in the first place.
"James: I haven't read any Kant. If that is what Kant is about, I am SO glad that I don't have to read that crap." - opticalradiation
It's probably best that you haven't. Kant requires close and careful reading. Oh, I shouldn't forget, this is also not a falsification. So, I guess we can't say that all religious claims reduce to falsifiable propositions.
Honestly, I was sort of hoping that they could be.
[I went over to Coyne's blog to reassure them that their comments here hadn't been deleted, they had just been awaiting moderation... and I ended up posting the following in the thread over there. I feel compelled to re-post here, or else I feel uncomfortably like I am cheating on this blog with another one!]
ReplyDeleteThis debate over whether science can reject “supernatural” claims has been going on intermittently for months — on our blog, on our podcast, and in private. And we are no closer to resolving our disagreement than when we started, alas.
Massimo has argued that even empirical claims made by religion cannot be disproved by science; in an older post he said, “science technically cannot even reject young earth creationism because of an escape clause known in some circles as ‘last Thursdaysm’… The idea is that… the world was created by god last Thursday (or whenever), and he arranged it this way just to test our faith.”
In response to this line of argument I tend to say two things:
(1) First, the words “reject” or “disprove” are generally shorthand for “disprove, conditional on our current body of scientific knowledge being true.” I’m pretty sure that’s the sense in which Coyne was using the word, and it’s certainly a more sensible way to define “disprove” than Massimo’s definition, which seems so strict as to be essentially useless. By the standard meaning of “disprove,” science certainly can disprove young-Earth creationism.
And (2), I don’t see what makes so-called supernatural claims special in being technically unfalsifiable — you could come up with some similarly elaborate excuse to protect any claim from being disproved by science (e.g., “The psychic powers shut off in the presence of tests!”) I don’t understand why Massimo allows so-called “supernatural” claims to invoke such a loophole, rendering them immune to scientific disproof, when he doesn’t allow other claims immunity via equivalent loopholes. The only difference seems to be the presence of the label “supernatural” and I don’t see why that’s a relevant difference.
"There is no materialistic explanation for either quantum indeterminacy or quantum entanglement. Your refusal to acknowledge this fact does not change the fact. It simply reveals that you are clinging to a faith-based commitment to materialism."
ReplyDeleteAnd what is the alternative explanation?
Indeterminacy contradicts exactly what the word suggests absolute determinism. It doesn't contradict materialism.
Michael de Dora:
ReplyDeleteBecause Coyne seems to blur the line between the practice of science and the broader scientific worldview.
What is science good for if not for building a worldview from its findings? It is nothing but a quest for a deeper understanding of the world around us.
ccbowers / Lyndon:
The problem with this type of thinking is that if you lived a thousand years ago you would all sorts of beliefs in the supernatural that we now have naturalistic explanations for. ... I would add that this type of thinking is also what leads to prolonging of belief in the soul and libertarian free will.
I understand where this argument is going, and it is basically the same as previous ones I read here about how accepting goddidit as an argument is a dead end for research. But what I never understand is why accepting goddidit as the Currently Best Explanation That We Can Come Up With For Now (CBETWCCUWFN) should be any less vulnerable to somebody coming along with a better explanation than any other scientific idea. Once scientists thought that bacteria spontaneously poof into existence, and then came Pasteur and showed that they don't. Once scientists would have been unable to come up with a more convincing story than creationism, then came Darwin (this is of course greatly simplified, but it's about the principle here). Accepting the first ideas as the CBETWCCUWFN did not stop acceptence of the new, better ones. If we find tomorrow that praying to Ganeesha heals cancer (P < 0.05 and all), what keeps us from picking at it and finding out 50 years later that it was just hyperadvanced aliens messing with our heads for the giggles? Why should the vague possiblity that it is alien jokels doing that keep us from accepting the "Ganeesha exists" theory as the CBETWCCUWFN when we don't yet have any evidence for those aliens? Again: for now. This is all you ever get in science, but the goddidit as a dead end argument pretends that this would somehow be different to all other scientific ideas. Not at all: the argument is nothing but another privilege granted to religions, only in a roundabout way.
Kirk:
Coyne is only claiming that causal relations can be tested, but this only makes sense if the more general theories have already been tested, which they haven't and can't... We have no way to develop a valid test that Coyne purports to be possible.
You could just as well say that nobody is allowed to observe that masses attract each other before we have found the universal formula of physics.
Ciceronianus:
Concern is justified here only when people start demanding that others think and do as they do.
Nobody is discriminating against religious scientists; the point is simply that it must be allowed to say openly that their beliefs are on the same level as a fully trained scientist believing in the Easter Bunny or in goblins stealing their socks when they are not looking, i.e. silly and somewhat disconcerting. And saying that aloud is what is called New Atheism these days.
Julia:
Exactly; perhaps even more to the point, things like what Massimo dislikes Coyne, Dawkins etc. saying are always shorthand for "beyond reasonable doubt" and (see above) CBETWCCUWFN. Because that is all a competent scientist ever claims, in anything he or she ever says as a scientist. That goes completely without saying. Well, usually. Apparently not for Massimo, where it does not even go with Coyne in fact repeatedly saying it.
@ Julia & Massimo
ReplyDeleteThe argument that "science cannot even disprove YEC" is indeed a red herring. By such a narrow definition of "disproving", science cannot disprove anything at all. Massimo has never explicitly denied that, but by making the point with religious claims, he makes it look as though they are special in this respect, whereas clearly they are not. Immunizing strategies and escape clauses are always available, witness parapsychology. And you don’t have to be a supernaturalist to make an epistemological retreat like Last Thursdayism. Here is a perfectly natural version: extraterrestrial aliens with hyper-advanced technology have been fooling with us and have faked all the evidence for an ancient earth (think about the planet-manufacturing planet Magrathea in The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy). So I completely agree with Julia on this one!
There is another point I find puzzling: this is the second time you chide the new atheists for relying on naive falsificationism, while you come off sounding like a traditional falsificationist yourself. In a previous post, you argued that the supernatural "can be compatible with any given empirical observation" as a reason for excluding it from the purview of science, and here you press the point about the unfalsifiability again.
Finally, I can't help feeling that your post was unnecessarily condescending to Coyne ("very naive and pretentious"). You have rightly criticized PZ Myers' tone a while ago, but it seems that the discussion is heating up again... Remember that there is consensus among philosophers on this point either. If Coyne needs a crash course in philosophy, then so do a lot of academic philosophers: Evan Fales, Niall Shanks, Daniel Dennett, John Dupré etc. And me and my co-authors, another bunch of philosophers! :-)
@ RichardW
Thanks for your thoughtful comments on Taner Edis' blog. I agree that the definition argument can be made more sophisticated, and this would merit a more extensive discussion along the lines you suggest. However, I couldn’t find any such argument in the writings of IMN defenders anyway. Ruse's argument is very sketchy: he seems to realize that an arbitrary semantic convention is rather weak to make an epistemological point. And I think justifying the convention on historical grounds wouldn't work either. For example, as recent as in the beginning of the 20th century, biologists were looking for some sort of teleological driving force or supernatural guidance behind evolution, which they thought was necessary to account for progression and biological complexity. To call such efforts ‘unscientific’ with hindsight seems anachronistic to me.
I do not think you can move past the divides that constitute a belief in science or a belief in religion until you jettison this true/false stuff and this existence stuff. They are misleading concepts which give rise to impassioned arguments about nothing at all.
ReplyDeleteA well-versed philosopher can say it much better than I can, but existence and truth are relative concepts. They are good for some but not all when it comes to judging the veracity or existence of any particular thing. If something exists for you it need not exist for me. it is that simple. Something that is said to be true or false does not wash there must be a subjective notion attached. Again, it is really that simple.
We walk around and we see stuff and say it is there, therefore it exists , and yes we can prove it because it can be touched and measured. Stuff we feel? Not so much. But there is no difference between the things we feel and the things we touch and see, if we extend our view of what it means to sense something. If we treat all incoming information as information first and foremost, and treat the vehicle in which the info arrived as a secondary consideration, we are capable of viewing things in different lights, and this need not be in conflict with scientific method.,
I know that for most believers and non-believers, the 'concept of gods' involves some kind of controller(s) without hard evidence of the control. But I don't think deism and things like disinterested controlling machinery are are making inroads in popular religious thought and I do not understand why.
The Alex SL formerly known as Mintman raised some interesting ideas in his Atlantis riff. He talked about a myth which I bet does not have a lot of buy-in here. He talked of the ways in which the lack of evidence proves the lack of existence, and how various 'believers' changed their words to keep their argument alive. But key in what Alex said was how we could go about the investigation, and I would like to amplify this.
Why is it that those of you who think all these thoughts about gods do not entertain (at least with what you write) the idea that the unknown is a fact of life and it should be dealt with, and not fobbed off because it doesn't play very well with others in scientific investigative settings? I do understand that for some, the issue may be reaching conclusions about religion based on lack of evidence. But my complaint is that a serious search for ETI, gods, Atlantis, and all sorts of stuff laughed off as beyond the pale is nowhere to be found in the scientific world today. In time, I think this will change, as ideas like paranormality are discarded as politically incorrect.
No need for Alex's Bermuda Triangle-ready ocean floor excavators yet. We can take any myth that we are curious about, treat it as no more than a body of information by throwing overboard all value judgments. We do experiments. We read journals, listen to and process what others have said about the myth. We take in the lore and do some hard thinking about it. Yes, our conclusion could involve life forms here or there that we do not comprehend.
But the strength of the lore should not be dismissed by we who know better because 5 out of our 6 or 7 known senses tell us otherwise. Strength of information can be defined as how likely is information to make inroads into a person or entity's belief system based on existing beliefs/knowledge.
What is needed is historiography on steroids, given the conviction that everything are aware of is true in some sense, now lets learn more.
I do not think you can move past the divides that constitute a belief in