tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post8896432337249541081..comments2023-10-10T08:02:18.073-04:00Comments on Rationally Speaking: Online education and the latest hype from Thomas FriedmanUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-5799326782610508252012-06-19T20:44:01.998-04:002012-06-19T20:44:01.998-04:00Massimo,
You are right that we ought take tests i...Massimo,<br /><br />You are right that we ought take tests in person, and you are right that the optimal method of teaching involves copious quantities of student-teacher interaction. However, just because a lecture is a live performance rather than a recording doesn't mean it is interactive to any significant extent. That all depends on the teacher and a great many, especially in more technical courses, rarely offer added value over a recording. To the contrary, since they do not interact, those who are additionally poor presenters are inferior to a recording of a good presenter. So, a recording often is better than the teacher you have, but this conclusion, though perhaps practically useful, doesn't threaten your depiction of an idealized education. <br /><br />What does is your seeming rejection of the idea that recorded lectures can and should provide a labor saving tool to allow professors to spend more time actually interacting with students and less time endlessly giving the same lectures over and over again. <br /><br />And, though that's ideal, how much is it worth? How much more do you learn from actually attending a calculus class than you do from just studying and learning the exact same material from a book? <br /><br />Teachers are expensive. That isn't some new thing, and there are plenty of other reasons why school is expensive, but you can't tell me that school wouldn't be far cheaper if those of us who are capable of learning from a book could just do so and get equal credit as those who learned differently but perform equally.<br /><br />The way things are organized is ridiculously impractical. It isn't about optimisation and efficiency. It is about momentum and entrenched interests.Lycanthropehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07294159664233317086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-62915553319955665862012-06-03T17:35:14.763-04:002012-06-03T17:35:14.763-04:00No, because it's not really learning. You talk...No, because it's not really learning. You talk about automatic "interactions" as if they are equivalent to face-to-face time with a professor, and that's simply not the case. It IS exciting that so much information is available to so many, but the internet has been around for a while and it hasn't solved all of our education dilemmas yet. What we need is to develop a deeper, more systematic method for teaching our teachers-to-be, thereby increasing quality of education, not just availability. Like it says in the blog, we need to restructure education, not just make it cheap.a Lion roars at midnighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17236065828534035769noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-71712345973276564692012-05-28T21:49:36.864-04:002012-05-28T21:49:36.864-04:00This is also why the NYT doesn't have a real p...This is also why the NYT doesn't have a real paywall, rather than the fake that's easily defeated by NYClean or a Greasemonkey script. Friedman might find out that not a lot of people would pay to read him (or Bobo Brooks).Gadflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13075757287807731373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-47574228991376235542012-05-28T21:47:23.611-04:002012-05-28T21:47:23.611-04:00One thing that I'm guessing "My Head is F...One thing that I'm guessing "My Head is Flat" (as I call him on my blog) Friedman ignores is ... accreditation.<br /><br />People made such a to-do about MIT doing so many online courses ... then noticed that none of them is for credit. And per his note on "certificate of completetion," yeah, Teapot Tommy, I'm sure that's going to look really impressive on a resume.<br /><br />I'm surprised he's not volunteered himself yet to be the Americans Elect presidential nominee.Gadflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13075757287807731373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-78806690858898694602012-05-24T12:17:26.565-04:002012-05-24T12:17:26.565-04:00"But I don't think *any* education is wor..."But I don't think *any* education is worth $40K, and the alternative is good, affordable public schools -- whose budgets are being cut and whose administrators often buy into Friedman-type rhetoric (we can do more! with less! and it's cool, because it uses computers!)."<br /><br />Lets support public schools more overtly. Other than a few summer classes, all ~21 years of my formal education has been in public schools. Assuming that circumstances don't change too much it is likely that my (still very young) children will also be going to public schools through college. I agree that the cost of private schools is ridiculous, but I don't truly understand the nature of the problem.ccbowershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11686910795750392419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-45413724535017426842012-05-24T08:06:09.259-04:002012-05-24T08:06:09.259-04:00liberalcynic,
well, to been with, I said that I d...liberalcynic,<br /><br />well, to been with, I said that I do lecture and I do teach online, so clearly I appreciate the value of both. I simply think that Friedman-type hype is misleading and dangerous because it downplays the problems of higher education.<br /><br />Second, the evidence is clear: motivated students do learn from online courses. But, frankly, motivated students will learn no matter what because, well, they are motivated! And unfortunately they represent a large minority of the people we want to reach.<br /><br />Third, of course few people can afford Stanford tuition. But I don't think *any* education is worth $40K, and the alternative is good, affordable public schools -- whose budgets are being cut and whose administrators often buy into Friedman-type rhetoric (we can do more! with less! and it's cool, because it uses computers!).Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09099460671669064269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-78634713200180353572012-05-23T21:42:55.524-04:002012-05-23T21:42:55.524-04:00Massimo,
I'm skeptical about online education...Massimo,<br /><br />I'm skeptical about online education taking over the traditional college system anytime soon — and Thomas Friedman annoys me almost as much as he does Matt Taibbi — but I think you're underestimating the value of lecturing as you put it. I've learned a lot from Khan Academy and MIT Open Courseware (and the Rationally Speaking podcast!) I don't think they're in any position to test, grade, or certify anyone, but the lack of face-to-face conversation between teacher and pupil doesn't leave online education completely hamstrung.<br /><br />These websites have comment sections which take questions — the crowd can vote up or down questions — the teacher can answer the ones with highest votes. Not a perfect system, I know. But it will help many.<br /><br />You say, “Teaching — at its best — is an interactive experience between a necessarily small number of students and someone who has both knowledge to impart and an effective way of imparting it.”<br /><br />I agree. But must we doom people to choosing between no teaching and best teaching? There’s Stanford for those who can afford it — The classroom sizes at even the big schools suggest there isn’t much personal interaction — and for those who want to learn just something, there’s online education. <br /><br />Friedman seems giddy about this and jumps the gun — such as from Nandan Nilekani saying ‘the playing field is being leveled’ to ‘the world is flat’ — but I believe that in criticizing Friedman’s hyperbole, you’ve dissed online education more than necessary.<br /><br />PS: How about this topic for June’s NYCSkeptics meetup?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-38471303178481820882012-05-23T16:01:30.764-04:002012-05-23T16:01:30.764-04:00Professor Pigliucci: I won't fault anyone for...Professor Pigliucci: I won't fault anyone for giving Thomas Friedman a good rap on the knuckles. He deserves it.<br /><br />What I took away from your post is that the education system has poorly motivated, poorly prepared students, and college has become a way of extending high school. In other words, college is remedial. And the management is ineffective. Correct me if I am wrong.<br /><br />I doubt if online education will fix the system. But it might provide opportunities to help those who are prepared and motivated. Which I think is what you pointed out. <br /><br />Cheers,<br />ScottAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-11826507643745215972012-05-23T12:28:13.782-04:002012-05-23T12:28:13.782-04:00Daniel,
well, sorry to have disappointed you, but...Daniel,<br /><br />well, sorry to have disappointed you, but your comment isn't helpful at all, as it is. Feel free to elaborate on why the post is "remarkably poorly argued" (really? It's not just that you disagree? It's that badly written?). Before you do, make sure you read the comments above and my replies, you may get a better feeling for why I think the post is well argued...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09099460671669064269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-19257158809061306812012-05-23T10:55:20.933-04:002012-05-23T10:55:20.933-04:00I found this a remarkably poorly-argued article, a...I found this a remarkably poorly-argued article, and I'm not a fan of Friedman at all.<br /><br />I only wish I could have emailed the author instead of publicly commenting. I have no intention of trashing his work, as it looks like a great deal of thought, effort, and no doubt studying went into it.Daniel Markhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00708928235899061123noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-53540462922606335162012-05-23T09:20:07.271-04:002012-05-23T09:20:07.271-04:00Massimo,
Concerning your comment above: […] you m...Massimo,<br /><br />Concerning your comment above: <i>[…] you may be overestimating even the automation that can be done for math teaching.</i><br /><br />I entirely agree.<br /><br />I have taught math at university level (that was some time ago) and, although multiple choice questions were becoming popular, I never used them in my exams. I felt the only way to really measure understanding was to look at the process leading to an answer and not at the answer itself. How a student thinks about a problem is much more important than the factual answer.<br /><br />There is also the fact that a stupid error can lead to a wrong answer while most of the reasoning is correct.JPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12609837930361362269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-90596733260868825892012-05-23T08:39:20.312-04:002012-05-23T08:39:20.312-04:00Many universities also see on-line education as a ...Many universities also see on-line education as a lucrative revenue generator and don’t want to miss the money boat. There is a bit of if-you-can’t-beat-them-join-them attitude.<br /><br />On-line education is doable on low level courses, and today’s kids learn differently. Just as traditional classroom learning, the quality depends on the instructors and students.jrhshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01074853182840350306noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-11001878006467727872012-05-23T07:28:19.265-04:002012-05-23T07:28:19.265-04:00long number,
but one of the issues here is that e...long number,<br /><br />but one of the issues here is that education is not just for the purposes of the workforce, we educate citizens of a democracy, not just workers for the industry. I am constantly amused by how especially Americans don't talk about citizens, but rather about taxpayers or members of the workforce. Life is broader than work and taxes.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09099460671669064269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-37217293824294538782012-05-23T07:26:48.555-04:002012-05-23T07:26:48.555-04:00Alastair,
you have not addressed my comment, you ...Alastair,<br /><br />you have not addressed my comment, you are simply stating a generic article of faith. Besides, nobody is talking about "stopping technological development," we are talking about what to do with education -- not at all the same thing.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09099460671669064269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-6185428933721907892012-05-22T22:51:47.457-04:002012-05-22T22:51:47.457-04:00And here is a report on a randomised trial compari...And here is a report on a randomised trial comparing "traditional" statistics teaching to a hybrid traditional+automated approach, and the hybrid comes out well. <br /><br />http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/05/22/report-robots-stack-human-professors-teaching-intro-stats<br /><br />It's hardly the last word, but I think the key is to test every online course in trials such as these, and make each and every one of them justify itself. Given the extreme ease of shortcuts and shoddy online options, the onus is on the online option to prove itself, but that doesn't mean it won't (for some subjects, courses and implementations).Joanna Maselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14213528673854230496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-56167394946792834322012-05-22T21:57:48.348-04:002012-05-22T21:57:48.348-04:00F2F beats on-line, still. If this were not so, the...F2F beats on-line, still. If this were not so, there would not be such capital and interest rushing to each new small step in videoconferencing. I agree pre-college does not minimally instruct much less educate, nor does college in general educate. There will never be an economic reason for a predominantly educated workforce: what would be the purpose? Education is the drawing out of the best one is capable of. This is a minority persuit.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-63746361849482022922012-05-22T19:16:36.845-04:002012-05-22T19:16:36.845-04:00Massimo,
You can't stop technological develop...Massimo,<br /><br />You can't stop technological development. Online education is here to stay for the very reasons Friedman has put forth. I understand why some educators may feel threatened by that prospect. After all, their lifestyle (if not their livelihood) may be radically altered. But everyone here is in the same boat. No one is immune to technology and its impact on the work environment.Alastair F. Paisleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15732723685886383829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-1974605372295483642012-05-22T17:29:09.707-04:002012-05-22T17:29:09.707-04:00Alastair,
that has never made sense to me. Do you...Alastair,<br /><br />that has never made sense to me. Do you think "technology" has its own brain and willpower? Besides, there are examples of technologies we got rid of (the Concorde) or stopped using (the atomic bomb) because we thought better.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09099460671669064269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-53858406540323847802012-05-22T17:28:57.558-04:002012-05-22T17:28:57.558-04:00@Joanna: Thank you!
That's really cool that ...@Joanna: Thank you!<br /><br />That's really cool that you were able to run a randomized study, and I'm sad that you don't have the data analyzed. Still, I would love love love to see the results that you do have. I'm trying to do a similar study this coming academic year. I have four lab sections of a 200-level microbiology course, that's open to biology majors and required for nursing majors. With kind of stunning levels of administrative help, I have two homogenous sections and two heterogenous sections (kind of: one section is 100% biology majors, one is 100% nursing majors, two are mixed nursing and biology majors). These four lab sections are tied to two separate lecture sections. Because this is a class that sells out routinely, students already have to get signed in by a person in the registrar's office (we can do this, we're a tiny college). So the registrar was randomly assigning students to sections when they came in to enroll, within these constraints (um, and of course lots of other constraints, like if students had other conflicting classes or were in sports and such. So there's that.) But even though this class is one of the very largest on our campus, I'm still only going to wind up with 20-24 students per lab section, plus when you figure in drop-outs/nonresponses, it's probably going to be only about 15 participants per arm of the study. :(<br /><br />I completely agree that both educators and physicians can be way too confident about "what works." (I'd also recommend Atul Gawande's 2005 New Yorker essay "Desperate Measures" as a creepy human interest story about overconfidence and being totally wrong in adhering to equipoise.) But the solution to this is more research--which, weirdly, can only be done by nodding to people's equipoise objections, even if they're wrong. I think the alternative is the much worse overconfidence of "I know I'm a good teacher, my students get good grades and I can just feel they're learning so much" that was completely unchallenged for generations (and is still, I fear, the dominant way of looking at assessment). <br /><br />Anyway, would you mind terribly sending me what you have on your genetics class study? In the future, when I write up my only-sorta-randomized, N of approaching zero, microbiology study I'll totally cite you (as unpublished data, but still).<br /><br />I'm at robson@morningside.edu <br /><br />Thanks in advance! :)Rachel Robsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00456421784188558856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-57799173966318765132012-05-22T16:20:14.911-04:002012-05-22T16:20:14.911-04:00I meant "1 group missing" not "meet...I meant "1 group missing" not "meeting". And just to clarify, students picked one of the 6 sections to fit their schedule, then within 3 of those sections I assigned students to heterogeneous groups, and in 3 I created homogeneous groups. Each TA led one section of each type. N=the total number of students in the class for most purposes, with the multiple sections helping control for time of day and other possible pseudoreplication factors.Joanna Maselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14213528673854230496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-72166358139828358762012-05-22T16:15:11.397-04:002012-05-22T16:15:11.397-04:00Nice article Rachel! My feeling is that both physi...Nice article Rachel! My feeling is that both physicians/medical researchers and educators/educational researchers tend to overestimate their confidence as to what works best. I base this on a long history of being wrong in medicine (I recommend the book "Taking the Medicine") and on likely universality of human nature in the parallel case of education. Overconfidence systematically creates a tendency to see equipoise objections where none, in fact, exist.<br /><br />I actually did randomize some of my college students once. I taught a large undergrad Genetics class, which was divided into 6 TA-led discussion sections spread across 3 TAs. I wanted to test the benefits of heterogeneous vs. homogeneous groups for small-group discussions. Unfortunately, my group allocation method was hopelessly flawed: I used prior GPA, which turned out to correlate very badly with success in Genetics. It did correlate well with attendance at discussion sections though: heterogeneous groups consistently had 1 member missing, while homogeneous group consistently had 1 entire group meeting, so the whole thing became confounded with group size on top, and I didn't even bother to analyze the data. But still, this is an example of how I pulled of the randomization, albeit at a large research university where few of my colleagues would care.Joanna Maselhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14213528673854230496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-13613045244534627722012-05-22T15:06:23.853-04:002012-05-22T15:06:23.853-04:00The bottom line is that online education is here t...The bottom line is that online education is here to stay. You can't stop technology. If you want to survive, you better learn how to adapt.Alastair F. Paisleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15732723685886383829noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-31911123633324656112012-05-22T14:59:56.877-04:002012-05-22T14:59:56.877-04:00@Stewy: I know, right? So annoying reading these a...@Stewy: I know, right? So annoying reading these arguments that start out "I've never read any pedagogical studies, but I learn just fine from lectures so lectures work awesome" and are coming from *scientists.*<br /><br />@Joanna: Point (b). Please explain how you can pull off a randomized trial of a college-level pedagogical technique. I'm guessing students at your school are also allowed to choose their own course schedules, just like they are everywhere else.<br /><br />#self-aggrandizement: Here's an article (look! from the pedagogical literature! which exists, and is a pretty rich field of study, FYI!) about the difficulties in randomizing students in pedagogical studies, and how pedagogical research is similar in this way to clinical research:<br />http://jmbe.asm.org/index.php/jmbe/article/view/360/htmlRachel Robsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00456421784188558856noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-51677697916999804622012-05-22T13:15:58.903-04:002012-05-22T13:15:58.903-04:00"When a college degree become mandatory, it i..."When a college degree become mandatory, it is no surprise that you have a lot of unmotivated students."<br /><br />I've thought about this problem quite a bit in the past and had trouble thinking of a satisfactory solution. Vocational training could be part of the solution (for those not interested in a general education), but usually that is something very different than an education at a college or university. I think in the US this alternative not quite as acceptable, but I think the bigger obstacle is that a person must decide to learn a particular occupation. Going to college or university can be a socially acceptable way of delaying a decision, but this is problematic and expensive for those uninterested or not ready for this type of education. <br /><br />I guess part of the problem is that too many people don't value education outside of its impact on future employment. This can be illustrated with the question -'What can you do with that?' a common response to a student declaring a major. Given the huge increases in cost of education, I assume that this type of thinking will only increase.ccbowershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11686910795750392419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-61354169886740098482012-05-22T12:18:23.767-04:002012-05-22T12:18:23.767-04:00I teach online. I know it's not all about lec...I teach online. I know it's not all about lectures. I also know that students walk away with less learning than they do in an on-site class, and retain it for a shorter period of time. <br /><br />Yes, online education fills a gap, and online lectures are a good thing. But they do not substitute for a quality education. The author makes good and relevant points here. We are talking about apples and oranges. Friedman is up to what he's always up to: blurring over critical distinctions to come up with 'bold' statements that sell books.Rich Schimpfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06916335793663791182noreply@blogger.com