tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post5660604115881584531..comments2023-10-10T08:02:18.073-04:00Comments on Rationally Speaking: The Michael Hecht-Rationally Speaking affairUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger96125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-58530190720763267992012-12-31T08:07:13.006-05:002012-12-31T08:07:13.006-05:00I know this was a sordid experience, probably for ...I know this was a sordid experience, probably for everyone involved. However, one should always look at ways of how to move forward. To me the literature list you provided was VERY valuable. I was wondering if the two of you could, at least in podcasts that only feature the two of you, reference all the literature you looked at. One of the major outcomes of your podcasts (besides making me happy :) are that they make me aware of research I might want to look into. No need for a minute-by-minute correlation as you have done here, an alphabetical list (or the like) would be more than sufficient (and awesome). Just my 2 cents on this.<br />BTW, my deepest respect for plowing through this amount of original research literature for one podcast episode!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-57875882959347978852011-08-14T18:21:38.150-04:002011-08-14T18:21:38.150-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14794853826344471410noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-24497631949073537432011-07-17T00:10:38.654-04:002011-07-17T00:10:38.654-04:00Have not heard anything from Jennifer. I'm exp...Have not heard anything from Jennifer. I'm expecting either an apology or a detailed explanation, but I'm not holding my breadth for either.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09099460671669064269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-7931152759938368962011-07-16T15:04:48.882-04:002011-07-16T15:04:48.882-04:00It's been almost a month. So what's going ...It's been almost a month. So what's going on with this whole crisis of accused plagiarism? No resolution? Or Jennifer never really responded?thibault halpernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06706722311593453930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-44720872941872341122011-07-15T18:42:20.485-04:002011-07-15T18:42:20.485-04:00Wow, this seems really bizarre. It would be like i...Wow, this seems really bizarre. It would be like if you were arrested for a crime and when you went to court not only were you not told what the crime was but you had to prove you didn't do it.<br /><br />That is some very irrational behavior on Jennifer's part... at least from your telling of the story. I'd really have to hear her side too.Mike Bethanyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07684740645243659226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-65539079381106178672011-07-01T11:48:34.169-04:002011-07-01T11:48:34.169-04:00I agree on that. I have heard her mention more th...I agree on that. I have heard her mention more than once that chronic pain is no big deal and you get used to it. Well I suffered a snowboard injury a few years ago and I am still not used to that nerve pain that runs down my leg. My guess is that she has never experienced true chronic pain. Also, as far as suicide goes her argument fails when it comes to a costly and painful and terminal slow death. My 94 year old grandmother died a few years ago and it would have been easier for her and my family if she died a month or two earlier. She did not know what was going on or even who she was. She was just scared every second she was awake and I just hoped that she would be asleep as much as possible. That seemed like the only time she was not terribly suffering. It made me understand Dr K even more. So, Suicide (assisted or otherwise) might not always be wrong. I don't think we should tell others how to live, so why should we tell them how to die.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-9657782911583101192011-06-30T17:35:57.194-04:002011-06-30T17:35:57.194-04:00Ugh, I can't remember any specific examples of...Ugh, I can't remember any specific examples off the top of my head now, she's a cool character, but in almost every audio or video interview of JMH I've had to cringe a couple of times because of her poor reasoning. Let's just say her behaviour here doesn't surprise me...Ufonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-83245063882082701432011-06-29T14:31:54.261-04:002011-06-29T14:31:54.261-04:00Massimo, I do believe you, I just thought that see...Massimo, I do believe you, I just thought that seeing it myself would help understand it. I am sure you can imagine how weird this must seem from those of us that have heard JMH on the podcast and heard what seemed like a pretty decent relationship. I think most people are on your, and Julia's, side.mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-2702402949080003612011-06-29T08:44:00.164-04:002011-06-29T08:44:00.164-04:00Mike, I don't have screen shots, though I beli...Mike, I don't have screen shots, though I believe Julia does. I can assure you that, unfortunately, this is no joke. See also the comments by Ophelia, who has seen the live stream on Jennifer's Facebook page.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09099460671669064269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-33492477047719355262011-06-29T01:46:27.082-04:002011-06-29T01:46:27.082-04:00I find this whole mess to be more than a bit odd. ...I find this whole mess to be more than a bit odd. I looked online to see JMH's actual accusations and could not find anything. Massimo and Julia, I think it would help a lot of us to see some screen shots of your pages. I thought maybe it was a gag at first, due to it being so weird. I did check JMH's facebook and she seems to be going on like this is not even occurring. I hope this is just a big misunderstanding. But I am skeptical.mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-46818990090150623052011-06-26T21:50:55.523-04:002011-06-26T21:50:55.523-04:00Frankly, first of all, I think Hecht overrates her...Frankly, first of all, I think Hecht overrates herself as an author.<br /><br />"Doubt" was the only book of hers I've read through, and I 3-starred it on Amazon. Other than the Carvaka in ancient India, I didn't learn a lot new otherwise.<br /><br />Second, beyond the books Massimo mentions, Barbara Ehrenreich's "Bright Sided" tackles some of the "myth" issues, as part of New Age deconstructionism, far better than Hecht does. I'd recommend Nathaniel Branden, at least some of his stuff, too.<br /><br />ANd,Gadflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13075757287807731373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-13200284567200222402011-06-26T15:05:18.901-04:002011-06-26T15:05:18.901-04:00I look forward to hearing further developments fro...I look forward to hearing further developments from Jennifer's side to see what she is up to, but even then, I still hope she realises her mistake and takes off all methods of settling to the private sphere. She can still do this. And of course, at the conclusion of it (if the settling can conclude in the private sphere) to come out with Massimo and Julia for a public statement of settlement (whatever it be).thibault halpernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06706722311593453930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-52272937945063345302011-06-26T15:02:31.577-04:002011-06-26T15:02:31.577-04:00To me, perhaps the most egregious error in this wh...To me, perhaps the most egregious error in this whole situation is how Jennifer seeks to handle this problem (whether actual or not) by going public with it without first approaching Massimo and Julia about it and trying to work it out with them in private, AWAY FROM THE INTERNET. She does herself a disservice by first taking the tact of going public.<br /><br />Only AFTER her attempts of trying to settle the affair privately has failed should she go public with the problem (if there is actually a problem). What made her to be so politically unsavvy? I don't know anything about Jennifer or her works or eve the topics her works touch on but from what I saw of her publication list and her public CV, she is clearly a very highly educated person who has done a lot of things in the world. And yet, what happened to what would seem to be the most common sense approach of trying to settle something like this, namely, IN PRIVATE AWAY FROM THE INTERNET FIRST.<br /><br />From her public C.V., I see that Jennifer is probably in her 40s, so she didn't grow up in the internet age where perhaps "youngsters" would react by first going to the internet or email to settle affairs. I'm younger than her but also didn't grow up in the internet age.thibault halpernhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06706722311593453930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-9227481908503905342011-06-26T00:30:05.906-04:002011-06-26T00:30:05.906-04:00thw, when I spoke of anger, I spoke of the people ...thw, when I spoke of anger, I spoke of the people in this thread who have either 1) confessed to anger or 2) used deliberately malicious language. You fall into neither category. I also spoke of myself -- unjust accusations of plagiarism make me angry, and when they come from someone I respect, they make me anxious and sad. Still, I do my best to observe these negative emotions and respond to them appropriately. Like all who are dedicated to self-diagnosis, I often fail in the short-term, then succeed in the long-term.<br /><br />I am glad that you had a negative, defensive response when you inaccurately believed that I was speculating on your emotional state. Perhaps this will lead you to understand why I consider it counterproductive to speculate on Hecht's emotional state, or anyone else's.Nobody Toohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10063708017183673227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-43418927365016778982011-06-25T18:22:24.198-04:002011-06-25T18:22:24.198-04:00continued
"Hecht is an ideal starting point,...continued<br /><br />"Hecht is an ideal starting point, because of her sharp, rational mind and her frankness about her own mental issues. This can't be said of everyone, but in her case, there's no question: she is the best person to evaluate her own long-term behavioral patterns."<br /><br />I definitely don't think asking people to introspect their motives is always or even often the best way to discover their motives. We are all notoriously bad at knowing what motivates us. That's true of our normal, reasonable, rational behavior and much, much more so when we are entering highly stressed or psychotic states. In fact it would seem to be almost definitional of psychotic states that motives be self-misattributed if I can coin that term. Besides, JMH was asked and her answer didn't reveal anything new.<br /><br />"By sitting around leveling diagnoses that we make in anger (and in some cases an impressive amount of ignorance), we impede her progress."<br /><br />Who's angry here? I am mostly curious about this case. Not angry at all. I'm peripheral to the dispute. But I don't like ad hominem attacks suggesting that I'm motivated by anger if that's what you meant to imply by the comment. And I've been very careful to couch all of my statements with conditionals, "seems like" "best inference" "possibly" "suggests" "hypothesis" and so forth. Wish I could say that about everybody here.<br /><br />As for your second point, I stand by my hypothesis that "The discomfort that some people are expressing with this line of inquiry suggests that they believe such disorders are in some manner shameful." It's a suggestion, after all, which means it might be wrong. Historically, and even now, mental illness is something we are taught to be deeply ashamed of.<br /><br />This growing thicket of misunderstanding squares well with my suggestion that a podcast about the conceptual place of mental illness in contemporary society would be very useful. So thanks for helping that suggestion along.<br /><br />As an aside I meant to mention earlier that it's exquisitely ironic that all of this is happening on a blog entitled "rationally speaking."<br /><br />All the best, thwthwhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12426595036944456436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-84991323975463404812011-06-25T18:21:45.792-04:002011-06-25T18:21:45.792-04:00Nobody Too,
You wrote, "Highly rational and ...Nobody Too,<br /><br />You wrote, "Highly rational and intelligent people experience periods of irrationality."<br /><br />This certainly seems true but what does making the statement explain in this case? What is "rational" and "irrational?" No joke--rationality is a highly normative subject. I think it is best conceived as having to do with making "inferences to the best explanation," consistency, and coherency. Most people, I think, mean something like "reasonable." But that seems question begging to me--what is reasonable? Most usages seem to redound to what we all would agree is rational or reasonable, that is, what is normal and normative. But that's really vague and doesn't help us much in this case--why refer to rationality if all you mean is "normal?" <br /><br />Ultimately referring to JMH's 'rational mindedness' doesn't add much to the conversation unless you mean something like "inference to the best explanation, consistency, and coherency." And if you are applying such a definition JMH seems to have lost the capacity to be rational, at least for the moment. You did mention that people can suffer lapses of irrationality. Absolutely true. But such lapses are usually slips on the trail not tumbles off the mountain top (unless, of course, something is really amiss).<br /><br />"I (the anonymous poster from last night) have two objections to diagnosing Hecht in these circumstances."<br /><br />As for diagnosing JMH, a suggestion or an hypothesis is not equal to a diagnosis so that's a bit of a straw man. We can wonder out loud about the possibility can't we, w/o knowing with certainty the actuality of the case? Even if I think psychosis is the best explanation for what is going on that does not in any way mean I am sure that it is THE EXPLANATION or the only explanation. It's like any scientific question where hypotheses need to be tested and backed up with evidence interpreted through an established theory.<br /><br />continued belowthwhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12426595036944456436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-50327261857634408962011-06-25T15:12:47.570-04:002011-06-25T15:12:47.570-04:00Hi thw,
I (the anonymous poster from last night) ...Hi thw,<br /><br />I (the anonymous poster from last night) have two objections to diagnosing Hecht in these circumstances.<br /><br />Highly rational and intelligent people experience periods of irrationality. The way social media impacts these periods of irrationality /is/ fascinating, and deserving of study. Hecht is an ideal starting point, because of her sharp, rational mind and her frankness about her own mental issues. This can't be said of everyone, but in her case, there's no question: she is the best person to evaluate her own long-term behavioral patterns. By sitting around leveling diagnoses that we make in anger (and in some cases an impressive amount of ignorance), we impede her progress. Although this blog's comment stream was presumably never intended as a method of social networking, it runs the risk of sidetracking the relevant issues in the same way that Facebook praise and catcalls do.<br /><br />This leads into my second point, which is well-illustrated by "The discomfort that some people are expressing with this line of inquiry suggests that they believe such disorders are in some manner shameful." When you attempt to determine a stranger's motives over the Internet (rather than, you know, ASKING them), you are likely to come up with something time-wastingly, if amusingly, wrong.Nobody Toohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10063708017183673227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-23871788343560386962011-06-25T13:36:50.782-04:002011-06-25T13:36:50.782-04:00Well handled Massimo and Julia. You have demonstr...Well handled Massimo and Julia. You have demonstrated grace under fire in an unexpected and unpleasant situation. I hope JMH eventually recovers enough from whatever sent her into that abnormal state to give the two of you an apology. Social media have given outbursts a wide new reach.Thameronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05056803143951310082noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-7967957086400604022011-06-25T13:17:03.920-04:002011-06-25T13:17:03.920-04:00Massimo,
Unfortunately, I do not have much to say...Massimo,<br /><br />Unfortunately, I do not have much to say regarding the theme of the present post, but I recently purchased the current issue of Philosophy Now and finished your piece on mathematical platonism. When you find the time and the inclination, I would enjoy a discussion, here on the blog,about your article. While I am not a mathematical realist (I am a mathematical non-realist ala intuitionism), I think realism about mathematical objects *is* compatible with physicalism, properly construed, of course. <br /><br />P.S. Apologies for the misplaced comment.Cian Eamon Marleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09070168038290681070noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-8190140072195205642011-06-25T12:06:42.290-04:002011-06-25T12:06:42.290-04:00I'm not exactly sure why ppl are admonishing p...I'm not exactly sure why ppl are admonishing plum grenville and others to withhold suggestions that some aspects of psychosis is the basis of this dust-up. It does not strike me as impugning anyone's character or moral status to suggest that they may be suffering from some organically based departure from what most of us consider normal or reasonable behavior. The discomfort that some people are expressing with this line of inquiry suggests that they believe such disorders are in some manner shameful. I disagree with such interpretations. If someone is in distress, identifying the source is not a form of blame, or at least shouldn't be.<br /><br />I think this whole episode should motivate an exploration of mental illness and how it functions as an explanatory trope for 'abnormal' behavior. A fascinating book addressing the topic was recently penned by Ethan Watters. It's called "Crazy Like Us: The Globalization of the American Psyche" and details the exportation of DSM mental illness categories to the rest of the world, in part to create markets for pharmaceuticals. <br /><br />It's a tricky subject. There are definitely organic processes involved, yet how they play out socially is very much a social construction. Seems like excellent fodder for a show. <br /><br />Of course the proximate inspiration here may be tragic or at least very unfortunate and I do not suggest that it be explicitly dedicated to or identified w/ JMH. And, of course, we have no firm diagnosis yet for the conflict detailed in this post. But we do have hypotheses and I think they could motivate further exploration in the abstract.<br /><br />I hope this comment doesn't offend anyone. I'm not trying to be callous or opportunistic but just think the subject is very topical. It deserves attention completely apart from any relevance to the current dispute. If it helps clear up some issues related to the current dispute, all the better.thwhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12426595036944456436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-54647310840041002242011-06-25T10:56:36.121-04:002011-06-25T10:56:36.121-04:00Apparently this is where it's going to be left...Apparently this is where it's going to be left. JMH said (at least twice) yesterday that she would "make everything perfectly clear" when she had time. Since then she's had time to do new, cheerful posts on unrelated subjects...so it looks as if the plan is just to drop the whole thing and move on - without withdrawing the accusations and without apologizing.<br /><br />I don't exactly know why I find this so irritating, but I do.Ophelia Bensonhttp://www.butterfliesandwheels.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-54529864257647831222011-06-25T09:14:13.335-04:002011-06-25T09:14:13.335-04:00@plum grenville
Maybe we should avoid making such...@plum grenville<br /><br />Maybe we should avoid making such sweeping diagnoses, but If Jennifer is having some psychological issues then it is in everyone's best interest to encourage her to address them. <br /><br />I hesitated to suggest this earlier, because it is such a sensitive issue, but JMH did accuse Julia of "changing medication", and later apologized, stating:<br /><br />"I'm so sorry, really, I didn't mean things that way. I was upset but trying to have a lighter touch, I see that wasn't the way to do it. I'm very sorry. Again, I was trying to be nice and find a way to say they had not... done it out of malice or something, that's all. Trying to lighten the tone not make it worse. I take meds myself. Thats why I made the joke..."<br /><br />and later:<br /><br />"I always think people know I take antidepressants because I talk about it on my blog posts, but that is a silly assumption on my part."<br /><br />Many of my close friends and family members take antidepressants, so I want to be very clear that I am not trying to bring this up in order to diminish her accusations. I ONLY bring this up because JMH's comments and actions seem so strikingly uncharacteristic of her normally insightful, evenhanded, and otherwise brilliant tone. Also consider Camus Dude's observation above that she had announced on June 20th that she would be taking a break from her personal blog after some apparent personal trouble. We've never met, but I have heard her interviewed, and I am at a loss to explain her actions otherwise. Could this be a symptom of some larger issues, or am I jumping to some wild conclusions?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17949972520871418816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-86720281427669980822011-06-25T04:11:47.062-04:002011-06-25T04:11:47.062-04:00Does it strike anyone else as ironic that this lad...Does it strike anyone else as ironic that this lady has spent so long in the academic study of happiness, but is unable to find it herself? Is that not three wasted years?Christopherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08506959267993215915noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-73283363642904900782011-06-25T00:31:47.137-04:002011-06-25T00:31:47.137-04:00Sympathies and praise for Pigliucci and Galef in t...Sympathies and praise for Pigliucci and Galef in this stressful situation. This post, and this defense, is very well-handled.<br /><br />As for the rest of us, I submit that it is inappropriate to speculate on Hecht's mental state. Some of the people speculating on her mental health seem to be acting out of sincere concern, but such speculation, even when well-intentioned, is never helpful. Hecht has real friends and family -- not her Facebook friends -- who can assist her if she is unwell.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-80885439762567369882011-06-25T00:05:31.709-04:002011-06-25T00:05:31.709-04:00@julia and @plum Those do strike me as more like t...@julia and @plum Those do strike me as more like the thoughts of someone with bipolar or schizophrenia than the thoughts of a well-known skeptic author, and generally rational and kind person.<br /><br />I won't agree with plum, though, that "clearly" mental illness (or a neurological defect) is the case, as I am no expert. <br /><br />Further, I don't know JMH personally and have absolutely no idea what is happening in her life or her head. Those are usually good things to have an idea about before making a diagnosis, so I'd suggest others refrain from doing so as well.TheDudeDiogeneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11613928663752680375noreply@blogger.com