tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post4096835781014385266..comments2023-10-10T08:02:18.073-04:00Comments on Rationally Speaking: Jerry Coyne loses his cool, Dawkins his styleUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger65125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-42596744763289863272013-02-11T22:43:29.089-05:002013-02-11T22:43:29.089-05:00Jerry Coyne and Dawkins are just arrogant. They sp...Jerry Coyne and Dawkins are just arrogant. They spend a lot of time trying to prove those who believe in God are idiots. This tactic backfires because hate is not very influential. I don't believe in evolution and I have a doctorate degree. Many smart intellectuals also do not believe in it. Why does Coyne and Dawkins really care? They are quick to insult the religious as trying to spread the faith and yet that is exactly what they are doing. heymanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07862070686670002436noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-68420058277669562812012-01-27T09:53:32.725-05:002012-01-27T09:53:32.725-05:00I appreciate you three1 Stick to substance from no...I appreciate you three1 Stick to substance from now on.<br /> Feel free to criticize me here from ;http://fathergriggs.wordpress.com<br />http://humeofga.blogspot,com<br /> I've a network of blogs to spread naturalism. I combine and permute arguments. I compose articles and crosspost articles from elsewhere. Google skeptic griggsy and also arguments about Him-that square circle to see how one gnu goes after superstition.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-64977031398211906442012-01-21T11:46:22.398-05:002012-01-21T11:46:22.398-05:00To quote 'that book' via Life of Brian: &#...To quote 'that book' via Life of Brian: 'Blessed are the peacemakers'! I contend that in fighting within atheist intellectualism only helps the irrational and religious. Divisiveness and infighting are legend in radical movements, but atheism is NOT a radical movement. It is about rationality and evidence. I am not some hippy saying 'can't we all just get along', but we really do need to focus on the reality that there is a far greater 'enemy' to unite against....https://www.blogger.com/profile/01091213938795498181noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-45007966786473572752012-01-14T19:36:27.868-05:002012-01-14T19:36:27.868-05:00While I often agree with Jerry and Dawkins about p...While I often agree with Jerry and Dawkins about points relating to Free-will and other topics that I don't agree with you on, I must say that I respect you so much, that I truly believe the comments insulting. You blog a lot, and go out on the line with your ideas, and answer all criticisms and differences of opinions. You respect your readers, regardless of our backgrounds. I thank you for that, as I am sure the rest of your audience does, even when we disagree.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07835248533705400567noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-54042610204301180072012-01-06T18:12:48.936-05:002012-01-06T18:12:48.936-05:00As a military historian I am fully aware that an a...As a military historian I am fully aware that an accurate biography is entirely dependent on its author’s ability to remain dispassionate, sensible, and fair in his or her treatment of the subject. After reading this piece I realized Dr. Pigliucci was absolutely correct in his attempt to balance the writings of Coyne, Dawkins and others who painted only one image of a vastly complicated, highly intelligent, gifted man like Christopher Hitchens. Moreover, it is entirely likely that Hitchens himself would have scoffed at much of what was written in the first days after his death, and dismissed it as emotional tripe. To date, only Salman Rushdie has managed to produce something that approaches an accurate description of his dear friend, and he managed this by including the less human side of Hitchens. In short, those who seek to glorify the life of a great man by ignoring and/or denying his mistakes and fallibility do him a disservice. Coyne, Dawkins and others should have, and could have done better.Military Historianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06514992685724327133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-55676530407110849292012-01-03T16:35:05.034-05:002012-01-03T16:35:05.034-05:00Dr. Pigliucci,
I hope this doesn't seem too t...Dr. Pigliucci,<br /><br />I hope this doesn't seem too trivial of me to say this, but I kinda wanted to get it off my chest. My comment to you above from a few days ago was very inappropriately phrased; too blunt, crass - rude even. I still very much disagree with you about this general Hitchens issue, but I could've phrased what I said in politer and less equivocal terms. I do apologize for what I said, and the way I said it. I respect you too damn much to "talk" to you that way. :sMichaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04124683199189659912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-81376984936070291852012-01-03T14:35:27.736-05:002012-01-03T14:35:27.736-05:00Unfortunately, it's disputes like this that co...Unfortunately, it's disputes like this that convince me that the secularist/nontheist/skeptic movements simply cannot be cohesive enough for many (including myself) to feel comfortable associating with.<br /><br />For instance, I'm politically left-of-centre, and in favour of policies that strongly favour ecological concerns. On the other hand, I'm turned off by radical feminism, confrontationalist advocacy approaches, and scientism. No matter where I look, someone in the movement would consider me "the enemy" based on ideologies or identity politics that override commitments to naturalistic/metaphysical worldviews.INTPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03932695595114514426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-41749846493321782972012-01-03T00:47:47.821-05:002012-01-03T00:47:47.821-05:00I just added you to my circle at GooglePlus so I h...I just added you to my circle at GooglePlus so I had the chance to read some of the commentary. I'm really not sure why you do this, Massimo; it gets SO *arch*--the commentariat-- and for what in return? Well you're tougher than I. Anyway, I think you could be a very interesting thinker to read and you'll get no archness or intellectual bullying from this quarter. I mean, I'm interested in what you said, above, about the worth of a civilised debate on atheism and types of atheism and analysis of the form rather than the function. I don't know that I see enough evidence (yet) that that can happen on the net ; such that both parties are doing equal work in keeping the tone of civility. Seems to me it's usually one person running from the boulders-a la Buster Keaton--while the other one throws them down the hill. But we'll see! Mishy Godard DunleavyAbigailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08892142578964860337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-2887211116802715912012-01-02T00:25:18.688-05:002012-01-02T00:25:18.688-05:00Rest of comment not there--glitch.
What I added ...Rest of comment not there--glitch. <br /><br />What I added was, you're not going to win any popularity contests for some of the things you wrote, but trust yourself and be true to yourself. Quaint of me to say so, perhaps, but worth putting the reminder out there I think. Mishy Godard.Abigailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08892142578964860337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-70908245924733764532012-01-02T00:13:44.475-05:002012-01-02T00:13:44.475-05:00Amen to what you said, Massimo Pigliucci.
Mishy ...Amen to what you said, Massimo Pigliucci. <br /> Mishy Godard Dunleavy.Abigailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08892142578964860337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-19565318023991844762012-01-01T11:34:11.380-05:002012-01-01T11:34:11.380-05:00I'm on your constructive criticism side of the...I'm on your constructive criticism side of the atheist debate. But I have to say that complaining, ironically, about women not being funny isn't really a sign that the complainer hates them.Dennis J. Junkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05826244501737767190noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-6069235802110912492011-12-31T01:27:35.319-05:002011-12-31T01:27:35.319-05:00In 2011 you count two Dawkinsian faux pas?
This is...In 2011 you count two Dawkinsian faux pas?<br />This is why one must urge atheists to abscond from their almost exclusive well within the box atheists group think de jour.<br />Dawkins spends his days dishing out ungentlemanly remarks against those whom he disagrees (including telling a Rabbi Boteach that he rants like Hitler and comparing Ted Haggard’s church service to Hitler’s Nazi Nuremberg rally—to name a mere sample [these are non 2001 faux pas]).<br />Why is it that atheists who make their living by running anti-Christian support group and pouring out derision suddenly turn into prim and proper gentlemen when someone responds and point out their nastiness? “Oh my, why, I’ve never!”Kenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16478151742674353783noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-80497792785838467792011-12-30T15:15:23.730-05:002011-12-30T15:15:23.730-05:00Per Massimo's comment on Hitch's misogyny,...Per Massimo's comment on Hitch's misogyny, I present:<br /><br />ON WOMEN<br /><br />“Why are women, who have the whole male world at their mercy, not funny?”<br /><br />—Vanity Fair, 2007<br /><br />http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/12/16/christopher-hitchens-s-best-zingers-from-sarah-palin-to-barack-obama.html<br /><br />If a religious person said that, Gnus would be all over him. But, it's Hitch, so Gnus say, "no, he wasn't a misogynist."Gadflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13075757287807731373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-49633178521080891022011-12-30T13:15:29.804-05:002011-12-30T13:15:29.804-05:00I keep reading this blog with the hope that some i...I keep reading this blog with the hope that some intelligent and rational ideas will sway me from agreeing with people such as PZ, Dawkins, Coyne, etc on various issues where they disagree with Massimo. <br /><br />I keep hoping for the side I disagree with to sow something to keep me thinking. This rarely happens here. Having met Massimo (in GA last year) as well as many of the new atheists (Coyne is not one I have met), I found all of them, even Dawkins, to be more friendly, warm, and thoughtful.<br /><br />I will give this blog a little more time to convince me before I delete it from my feed...hoping...ShaunPhillyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11062379898237160826noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-24451799658721553832011-12-29T10:15:24.338-05:002011-12-29T10:15:24.338-05:00Massimo, you won't win any popularity contests...Massimo, you won't win any popularity contests by your criticism of Coyne and Dawkins, since they are so well loved that the public often comes up with rationalizations to excuse their bad behavior. As Jay noted, they use their position as moderator/censor on their respective websites as a bludgeon to silence even the mildest critics (I know this from personal experience). <br /><br />Coyne, in particular frequently uses insults instead of reasoning to deal with opponents, and frequently assumes a superior air -- taking the position that the other person's point of view is so ridiculous that it need not be refuted by serious argument -- before censoring the opponent so that he cannot reply. Thus, Coyne declares himself the winner in a debate: "proof by intimidation" -- he wins a lot of arguments that way. <br /><br />However, Coyne and Dawkins have many fanatic fans that will defend even the most egregious outrages. It is sad, because both men are highly intelligent and fully capable of making a polite and reasoned argument, but seem to prefer to adopt a smug, Nazi-like air of a "superman" that need not bother to deal seriously or politely with his "inferiors". <br /><br />I think it is very damaging to the atheist/skeptics cause. I started out admiring these men, and was greatly disappointed to see how flawed they are. I am sure they are off-putting to many who might otherwise be converted to a more scientific viewpoint.<br /><br />Massimo, thanks for standing up for civility in debate! <br /><br />P.S. Dawkins has apologized for his own remarks, but will call for Coyne to apologize for his, or even acknowledge that Coyne's remarks were inappropriate? I'll wager not.Tom D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16005219519644708237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-40929648946881768182011-12-29T10:07:16.837-05:002011-12-29T10:07:16.837-05:00Massimo, kudos for taking on the bratty behavior o...Massimo, kudos for taking on the bratty behavior of Coyne & Dawkins.Tom D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/16005219519644708237noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-54676909599631845542011-12-29T09:17:34.700-05:002011-12-29T09:17:34.700-05:00vHF,
I apologize for the somewhat cumbersome comm...vHF,<br /><br />I apologize for the somewhat cumbersome commenting system, but the blog is moderated because of occasional death threats and more frequent inappropriate comments. Cheers.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09099460671669064269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-24448190418086445092011-12-29T09:10:58.149-05:002011-12-29T09:10:58.149-05:00It may interest you (or not) that Richard Dawkins ...It may interest you (or not) that Richard Dawkins has posted an approximation of an apology in the original thread:<br />http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2011/12/27/in-defense-of-hitch/#comment-169285<br /><br />Also, posting comments on your website is a real pain, with them IDs and the logins and the c-ooooo-mplex procedures.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-83640420550911260642011-12-29T08:54:22.606-05:002011-12-29T08:54:22.606-05:00FYI Dawkins has apologized:
Richard Dawkins
Poste...FYI Dawkins has apologized:<br /><br /><i>Richard Dawkins<br />Posted December 29, 2011 at 6:35 am <br /><br />I still Jerry was entirely correct in his defence of Christopher Hitchens against a misguided and unwarranted attack. Nevertheless, I now regret what I said, in the heat of the moment, about Massimo Pigliucci personally, withdraw it, and apologise.<br /><br />Richard</i><br /><br />Source: http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2011/12/27/in-defense-of-hitch/#comment-169285SimonSayshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04748847530760277608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-87545751723772490042011-12-29T03:15:17.485-05:002011-12-29T03:15:17.485-05:00Pull the plank out of your own eye, Professor. Not...Pull the plank out of your own eye, Professor. Not only is your critique of Hitch childish, biased and parochial, but your reaction to others' reaction of your critique is very telling. Bury the hatchet and get on to being the philosopher and biologist we've all come to know and love. This pissing contest with Coyne and Hitch or whoever is getting old.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04124683199189659912noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-21937237265285350892011-12-28T22:36:48.216-05:002011-12-28T22:36:48.216-05:00Massimo,
I can't say I have any interest in t...Massimo,<br /><br />I can't say I have any interest in this personal kerfuffle between you, Jerry Coyne and Dawkins. However, on the original point of the "balanced" view of Hitchens you put forward in your previous post and our later disagreement in the comments - I've been doing some thinking. What I have subsequently thunk is that the original accusation of hagiography is what really got my proverbial goat; this underestimates the audience's intelligence - it's common knowledge that he was not al-insan al-kamil (hows that for irony) - and ignores the immediate human need for a less rational, emotional response to his death. In that way, it acted as a provocation for those not feeling particularly full of sunshine at the time.<br /><br />Perhaps the responses you got from Coyne and Dawkins also reflect this, more than anything else.Robinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00055701170560201758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-70766550012758954112011-12-28T21:15:03.213-05:002011-12-28T21:15:03.213-05:00Dawkins is a buffoon so taken with anger that his ...Dawkins is a buffoon so taken with anger that his level of incredulity toward a given idea is what he feels should get the most press.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-64640428229536831952011-12-28T19:16:19.392-05:002011-12-28T19:16:19.392-05:00Coyne's reaction does seem both an over-reacti...Coyne's reaction does seem both an over-reaction and highly unprofessinal in content.<br /><br />It is quite usual that, at someone's death, all who speak at the funeral only wax lyrically about the deceased. That somehow only positives exist, and that nothing negative can even be contemplated. That it is the height of political incorrectness to disparage the deceased.<br /><br />But I think that Hitchens would have been the first to agree to, even welcome, the airing of negative criticism. And the opportunity to debate it.David Spanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08526621326232623478noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-86098472779997208912011-12-28T16:28:12.183-05:002011-12-28T16:28:12.183-05:00One can be, but routinely one is not. You've a...One can be, but routinely one is not. You've admitted yourself to engaging in personal attacks. I'm not reproaching you - it happens - but be realistic about it. Some situations call for rudeness. Do you agree?Mark Ericksonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12604074895219791713noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-23440160475403635962011-12-28T14:32:31.083-05:002011-12-28T14:32:31.083-05:00Dave,
remind me to turn off the "nasty title...Dave,<br /><br />remind me to turn off the "nasty titles" tag on the blog... ;-)<br /><br />Seriously, there are some people toward who I do have contempt and have no trouble showing it, Larry Summers being one of them. In other cases, you realize that there is a difference between harsh criticism and personal insult. To be accused of being "spectacularly wrong" of "unfortunately wrong" is something that mature adults ought to be able take. Kurwzeil: if you read the article, I conclude he is wrong, but not a crank. PZ's witless wanker was actually a sarcastic remark in response to his using those terms to vilify my colleague Michael DeDora.<br /><br />More broadly, this discussion is about atheists who largely agree on the fundamentals and who ought to be able to disagree in a more constructive and civilized manner.<br /><br />Yes, I have been occasionally guilty of the same, but as far as I know I am the only one who has recognized it (multiple times), apologized, and extended a truce. PZ, Jerry and Co. are above any admission of the sort, and they keep engaging in the same sort of behavior. And I never, ever, stooped so low as some of the comments made by Jerry and PZ in the last couple of days.<br /><br />murci,<br /><br />> would you be up for a debate with Coyne or PZ? <<br /><br />Yes, but I doubt they would agree, and I have little expectation that much good would come from that sort of debate.<br /><br />Mark,<br /><br />> a general problem with the civility side is that it is routine to be hypocritical <<br /><br />Why is it that politeness leads to being hypocritical? One can be civil yet firm, no?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09099460671669064269noreply@blogger.com