tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post9133436343977973773..comments2023-10-10T08:02:18.073-04:00Comments on Rationally Speaking: Excommunicated by the Atheists!Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-49605841411052499892008-10-10T10:12:00.000-04:002008-10-10T10:12:00.000-04:00Ok, boys, you've your say. As far as I'm concerned...Ok, boys, you've your say. As far as I'm concerned this matter is closed. Shall we move on?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09099460671669064269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-66963502908401517722008-10-10T07:44:00.000-04:002008-10-10T07:44:00.000-04:00"It is obviously a mistake to engage certain peopl...<I> "It is obviously a mistake to engage certain people.<BR/>p.s.<BR/>I'm sure a torrent of indignant and accusatory replies from Rayven and IGEPanda will now rain down here. So be it. I'm out."</I><BR/><BR/>Michael Dorian, your reply may have been passive aggressive, but it certainly was indignant in it's own way, and quite accusatory. <BR/><BR/>You see, this is what happens when we are childish and rather than backup assertions with facts just run away, people do get annoyed, which is at the heart of my dispute with your organization. I had a complaint about erroneous information being published. Rather than address it, a conspiracy theory was invented. I was correct and rather than post a retraction, well come to think about it you censored the information. <BR/><BR/>It's all well and good to point fingers and claim everyone else as indignant and accusatory, and you could be correct, but it's silly think you're somehow above it all when your also pointing fingers. It sounds good to apologize for bring it up on his blog, but would this happen if you didn't censor this issue on your own blog?<BR/><BR/>Respectfully you're annoyed with bad press the NYCA got recently. Why not actually embrace criticism and use it to improve the organization rather than play the damage control?Jesus H. Christhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04174891355865488288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-42453497219018216772008-10-10T06:46:00.000-04:002008-10-10T06:46:00.000-04:00p.s.I'm sure a torrent of indignant and accusatory...p.s.<BR/>I'm sure a torrent of indignant and accusatory replies from Rayven and IGEPanda will now rain down here. So be it. I'm out.MDorianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13822381125710871067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-65187438083410559242008-10-10T06:43:00.000-04:002008-10-10T06:43:00.000-04:00I'm truly sorry I bothered responding to the whole...I'm truly sorry I bothered responding to the whole name-calling episode. It is obviously a mistake to engage certain people.<BR/><BR/>I have neither the energy for nor the interest in being enmeshed in this kind of debate.<BR/><BR/>Massimo, I'm sorry to have allowed this ridiculous can of worms to be re-opened at your blog.MDorianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13822381125710871067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-26175990672726880542008-10-10T01:43:00.000-04:002008-10-10T01:43:00.000-04:00Rayven Rayven Rayven, Dorian is correct, the NYCA ...Rayven Rayven Rayven, Dorian is correct, the NYCA is not a "cult". They are only a pseudo-cult that happen to employ this us vs them mentality in order to assert authority and use ceremony, as well as liberal uses of censorship when the real facts affect their image. <BR/><BR/>For example, MDorian acts like a cult member. When his beliefs in his group are challenged, they shows what I can only describe as cognitive dissidence. He's among the first to assert I was harassing Jane Everhart by faxing her home late at night, but fails to acknowledge. He's pleased to publish a childish rant by Jane Everhart asserting I should be in jail, but when I bring evidence showing that Jane's information was incorrect from the get go, he censors it. He claims my dispute isn't with the organization yet he fails to understand that I tried to address concerns about information published by the organization, on the web site, on the meetup-site, and in their news letter, and the information came from their first contact person, their communications director, their press agent. <BR/><BR/>So Rayven, you do owe Dorian an apology. The NYCA isn't a cult, it's only a pseudo-cult. Cults are better at manipulating people. Respectfully, I find your assertion insulting to real cults who have enough in the way of charisma to get people to give up their lives for the cult. <BR/><BR/>M. Dorian, you fail to grasp one major issue. The NYCA is ultimately responsible for any bad press they received. If you find any then we present as inaccurate, and unfair, we would be placed to retract it and issue an apology. However, if accurate it's up to YOU to use this criticism to improve your organization, or vote with your feet.Jesus H. Christhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04174891355865488288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-67133368022031809532008-10-09T22:34:00.000-04:002008-10-09T22:34:00.000-04:00Let me point out something quite illogical in your...Let me point out something quite illogical in your comment MDorian.<BR/><BR/>Dorian stated: "So, I would appreciate it if people who haven't even ever attended a single NYCA meeting would refrain from referring to us as a cult. Ken Bronstein is certainly no Jim Jones, nor is he Sun Young Moon [sic]. And the members of NYCA are definitely not slavishly devoted to him or the group itself."<BR/><BR/>You assert that I should refrain from calling the NYCA a cult because I have not attended any meetings. You then use two names to assert that your leader is not a cult leader, implying that Jim Jones and Moon were/are. You fail to see that calling them cult leaders EVEN THOUGH YOU HAVE NEVER ATTENDED THEIR MEETINGS invalidates your first assertion.<BR/><BR/>You fail at logic.<BR/><BR/>As I said before, by staying in the NYCA you condone and accept what happened to Massimo. Then you have the gall to come post in his personal blog because you are offended that someone called your little group a cult.<BR/><BR/>...and you don't think that indicates cultish behavior.<BR/><BR/>Interesting.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15436701471076703173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-73365955940540641702008-10-09T22:05:00.000-04:002008-10-09T22:05:00.000-04:00Oh, please. Just because I disagree with you, Ray...Oh, please. Just because I disagree with you, Rayven, I've never said you don't have the right to your opinion. <BR/><BR/>As for my being "disrespectful," what makes you the arbiter of such things?<BR/><BR/>I've met Massimo, attended a lecture of his and very much enjoyed it, and was sorry myself to see him leave NYCA. If you think I don't have the right to express my opinion here, I think you're being a bit presumptuous.<BR/><BR/>Massimo may not any more think highly of NYCA, but I don't believe he considers NYCA a "cult." That's just silly name-calling on your part. But go ahead and think whatever you want--of course you're entitled to your (uninformed) opinion.MDorianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13822381125710871067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-49365225063709099592008-10-09T21:29:00.000-04:002008-10-09T21:29:00.000-04:00Let me make a preemptive strike here before MDoria...Let me make a preemptive strike here before MDorian responds. <BR/><BR/>MDorian, it might be polite if you chose to drop it and not continue arguing about the way many people are calling NYCA a cult. We have the right to our opinions. Let it go.<BR/><BR/>You chose to remain a member of the NYCA after Bronstein forced Massimo to leave. By staying, you condoned that act. It's more than a little tacky for you to come to Massimo's blog and complain about people calling the NYCA names. Have some respect. <BR/><BR/>I wanted Massimo to know that there are people who thought he was treated badly, people who cared enough to stand up, and even to get into arguments about it. It was very rude for you to pop in here and get all bent outa shape because your little cult was called a cult. Your group all ready violated the man, so perhaps you should go away and leave him alone now.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15436701471076703173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-43017071262936139322008-10-09T20:49:00.000-04:002008-10-09T20:49:00.000-04:00I don't think you define the word cult the way man...I don't think you define the word cult the way many of us do. You don't have to have rituals to be cult-like, although the NYCA debaptism ceremonies might fit that bill.<BR/><BR/>You're free to take offense at my calling the NYCA a cult Dorian, and I'm free to keep calling them one. It is my opinion. You're free to hold your own but you have no right to try to stifle free speech, at least not on someone else's blog. You deleted and refused to approve posts on your blog, but you don't have that power here.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15436701471076703173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-51113560222934087952008-10-09T20:24:00.000-04:002008-10-09T20:24:00.000-04:00It's really comical to me that people are so eager...It's really comical to me that people are so eager to throw the word "cult" around in reference to the New York City Atheists.<BR/><BR/>I'm in NYCA and I blog for them. There's nothing "cultish" about the group. We're not restricted from dealing with our families, friends, or other groups. There is no figurehead who requires idolatry or subservience. There are no bizarre rituals or ceremonies followed (unless you consider regular monthly meetings as bizarre ceremonies).<BR/><BR/>So, I would appreciate it if people who haven't even ever attended a single NYCA meeting would refrain from referring to us as a cult. Ken Bronstein is certainly no Jim Jones, nor is he Sun Young Moon [sic]. And the members of NYCA are definitely not slavishly devoted to him or the group itself.MDorianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13822381125710871067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-15548090683948703942008-10-09T17:16:00.000-04:002008-10-09T17:16:00.000-04:00The NYCA situation spilled over into my local meet...The NYCA situation spilled over into my local meetup group. I got into an argument with our organizer, Kenny, shortly after my online arguments with the NYCA a month or so ago. Our organizer is not only a member of the NYCA, he is a butt-kisser of Bronstein's. He and I argued about the way Massimo was treated. <BR/><BR/>I think Bronstein is a creep, Kenny thinks Bronstein "owns" the NYCA and can do whatver he wants. I thought the situation had blown over and was willing to let bygones be bygones, but two weeks ago, Kenny ripped off a guest speaker, who happens to be a friend of mine. It is a long story, but basically, he took <BR/>up a collection for her after she asked him not to, and then he kept all the money. He misled the members and manipulated them into giving money that they thought was going to Abbie (she goes by the name ERV online). I sent a public email to the meetup group asking why Kenny did not pay Abbie and he banned me. It's obvious that he has been looking for an excuse to ban me since the day we argued about the NYCA cult.<BR/><BR/>Here is a link to a thread I created, or rather the second one. The original was lost when GoDaddy <BR/>*accidentally* deleted our entire site. It seems that we lost many of the replies, but the original post and some of the replies remain. It is a complicated situation which is being discussed at more than one site. The Tulsa meetup group is in chaos at the moment. I suspect they will not force Kenny to leave the group, just as the NYCA did not force out Bronstein or Jane. It is my opinion that both groups have become cults. Those members who are not inclined to be in a cult have left or are leaving.<BR/><BR/>http://atheiststoday.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=24&thread_id=285Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15436701471076703173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-86516678774918389852008-10-09T15:30:00.000-04:002008-10-09T15:30:00.000-04:00leftoflarry,thanks for your comments. Well, it tur...leftoflarry,<BR/><BR/>thanks for your comments. Well, it turns out that NYCA membership cannot actually overthrow the President, because there are no elections, as far as I can tell. And the Board clearly has no power, as was evident from the fact that even though a majority of us asked for a Board meeting, the President simply ignored our request, period.<BR/><BR/>As for AAI, yes, it is a worthy organization, and it is set up with democratic governance being a requirement for all its member groups. So exactly why is NYCA still a member of AAI, despite the fact that I notified the Board of AAI of the peculiar situation at NYCA?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09099460671669064269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-16780683702080914142008-10-09T14:53:00.000-04:002008-10-09T14:53:00.000-04:00I know I'm a bit late here and I have not read any...I know I'm a bit late here and I have not read any of the comments left on this post. However, I would like to comment solely on the issue comparing the NYCA and Dawkins/Hitchens. Although I agree with Massimo, that an autocratic system is wrong (hence why the AAI is a better representation of a democratic organization) it is wrong to compare them to Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens. Whether you like or dislike the and "in your face" tactics it is not necessarily fair to compare them to this presumed autocratic organization like NYCA. <BR/><BR/>I think it is important to realize that to change society to adopt secularist values, we need to adopt a multi-faceted approach. We need Dawkins and Hitchens as we need people like Massimo Pigliucci and Michael Shermer and David Comings. But I don't think it is fair to say that autocracy is equivalent to Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens. The beauty of being a free thinker is that you can resign from a group. <BR/><BR/>The AAI, in my opinion is a better representation of the atheist movement because it not only demands democracy and follows strict bylaws, it also has been successful (under Margaret Downey) to unite the various factions of the atheist movement. Collaboration is the key. The NYCA board can easily overthrow the presidency if it sees fit. If the board refused to do so, then the board is complicit and if they are happy with the presidency, then one has a choice to either stay or leave.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-29918041676602421172008-08-29T19:53:00.000-04:002008-08-29T19:53:00.000-04:00We are AnonymousThis our take on the situationEncy...We are Anonymous<BR/><BR/>This our take on the situation<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://encyclopediadramatica.com/New_York_City_Atheists" REL="nofollow">Encyclopedia Dramatica</A><BR/><BR/>We will be watching.<BR/><BR/>Have a nice day,<BR/><BR/>Anonymous<BR/><BR/>PS Keep up the good work!Xevioushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06386988911805776145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-90741825204856157632008-08-26T04:05:00.000-04:002008-08-26T04:05:00.000-04:00doh...laggy connection. replace "blog" with "forum...doh...laggy connection. replace "blog" with "forum" :-)Skeevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07481431934878729195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-46910852159389446822008-08-26T04:03:00.000-04:002008-08-26T04:03:00.000-04:00This has become an item on our blog now as well. N...This has become an item on our blog now as well. NYCA really have stirred it up. Hope it works out for you, Massimo.<BR/><BR/>For the curious:<BR/>http://atheiststoday.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=24&thread_id=160Skeevehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07481431934878729195noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-79861849653131350602008-08-24T08:06:00.000-04:002008-08-24T08:06:00.000-04:00Harris, thanks for your support, it is much apprec...Harris, thanks for your support, it is much appreciated.<BR/><BR/>Panda, yes, I think it is time to move that particular trend to a more appropriate site. Thanks for your contributions.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09099460671669064269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-63673076039603332672008-08-24T00:03:00.000-04:002008-08-24T00:03:00.000-04:00Firstly, I have no idea how Massimo Pigliucci feel...Firstly, I have no idea how Massimo Pigliucci feels about his blog being used this way. So I'm proposing we move over here<BR/><BR/>http://www.rantsnraves.org/showthread.php?t=13446<BR/>Currently working on wording to bring up this issue on dawkins <BR/><BR/>But to be frank <BR/>as of 5pm Saturday 23 Augest 2008<BR/>we are at warJesus H. Christhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04174891355865488288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-42096264502830555352008-08-23T23:56:00.000-04:002008-08-23T23:56:00.000-04:00I've been trying to post comments to Natty Ada...I've been trying to post comments to Natty Adam's blog (http://nattyadams.blogspot.com/), but have not been able to for some reason - so I'll post my comment here, since a lot of the same people have been following this issue on both blogs. As a long time member of the NYCA, I can confirm that our PR person (Jane) does indeed react irrationally to anyone who disagrees with her, or merely questions her actions (or those of the NYCA). If she would only conduct herself in a more diplomatic fashion, issues such as this one (Rook) would never have exploded to the extent that it did. As for Massimo, the way he was treated by the leadership (i.e., Ken & Jane) was a complete disgrace. And these are just two of the most recent examples of extremely poor judgment exercised by the NYCA leadership. It is also true that the organization is now being run like a dictatorship / theocracy. I seriously hope that things will turn around for the NYCA soon, but when the people at the top cannot accept constructive criticism, much less admit fault, then there's very little hope that anything will change.Harrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02585702464877757793noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-51376244140008570302008-08-23T13:00:00.000-04:002008-08-23T13:00:00.000-04:00I use to attend some of the sec/hum atheist meetin...I use to attend some of the sec/hum atheist meetings if the topic interested me. I could tell that some people had serious walls up towards other people, even others who shared their own world view. So if they were not like lovey dovey, huggy kissy with me, I could have cared less. I could see that was just how they were on the inside.. had virtually nothing to do with accepting ME.<BR/><BR/>People simply act that way because they are crushed, hurt and disappointed on the inside. In my mind, they seem like really bright street people...More or less bankrupt on the inside with real tough exteriors. The fact of the matter is, we all just need to know sometimes that someone loves us no matter how we behave. If you really want to LITERALLY change the world, that's what it's going to take.<BR/><BR/>I'm lucky that way. I have older brothers and sisters who treat me like a little queen. And believe me, sometimes I know good and well that I don't deserve all that. <BR/><BR/>Today, lets consider giving someone something nice that they don't deserve. :) <BR/><BR/>Seriously. That's true Positivism. (and faith) <BR/><BR/>calcalianahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06702074438747578526noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-86906862000177036742008-08-22T23:27:00.000-04:002008-08-22T23:27:00.000-04:00I'm taking a break from my battle until I determin...I'm taking a break from my battle until I determine the next phase of appropriate action. I do have nothing against NYCA but the level of superstition I've encountered trying to address a meager issue of false representation is overwhelming. I was asked to give the benefit of the doubt, and am entertaining "cultural differences", and a lack of comprehension that I was giving the org a chance to propose their own solution to a minor issue of misrepresenting someone. <BR/><BR/>What I still don't grasp is how can someone ask to not question the leadership among a community predisposed to question authority?Jesus H. Christhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04174891355865488288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-34034071321582359572008-08-21T20:15:00.000-04:002008-08-21T20:15:00.000-04:00Hi Massimo,I went to a few of the meetings and exp...Hi Massimo,<BR/>I went to a few of the meetings and experienced very similar feelings to what you describe, about the executive machinery at NYCA. I will refrain from ad hominem attacks and focus on one particular incident. I was at an event with a group of NYCA members when I got to talking about naturalism as a positive philosophy to replace supernatural religion. This is a subject I'm very fond of and I write about this and related ideas. One certain authority figure in the group got very annoyed with me and dismissed me off saying "oh, some atheists will say naturalism is a religion, so there" or something to that effect. When I asked him what he meant he was evasive and kept dismissing what I had said.<BR/><BR/>Later that same day, I was in conversation with another group of people where I was talking to them about quite the same ideas you write about here- that atheism is a non-belief and we need a positive philosophy to replace the role that religion plays in our society and in individuals. The same authority figure rudely broke in. He said something like "atheism is not a belief". I replied that I had not said that it was, but that it was a non-belief. At that point he went off on a tirade about selling atheism as a conclusion and how the marketing of it is important- not that I disagree, but it was completely irrelevant! He seemed to not care about my opinion or the point I was making but just about getting me to agree to his way of selling atheism. <BR/><BR/>Still later that evening, after it was time to wrap up, a number of people came up to me and said they were interested in what I had been saying. I guess I won't be going to any more of the NYCA meetings. However, it's unfortunate for all those good people there who will stay and maybe not know that there are alternative approaches to atheism.<BR/>-AjitaRajhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09611506363046062534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-86351629634079142922008-08-21T13:28:00.000-04:002008-08-21T13:28:00.000-04:00I must concur, it's reasoned and neutral. I would...I must concur, it's reasoned and neutral. I wouldn't call my self a chief, and I went out of my way to document my every action so someone could look objectively to see if I truly was off base. <BR/><BR/>The matter now has full censorship, even their own threads are deleted, but I have everything PDFed.Jesus H. Christhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04174891355865488288noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-77850403351923748542008-08-21T13:04:00.000-04:002008-08-21T13:04:00.000-04:00Natty,thanks for the well reasoned post on your bl...Natty,<BR/><BR/>thanks for the well reasoned post on your blog. If you want details on the various versions of NYCA bylaws and how the organization is autocratically structured, please email me.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09099460671669064269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-9185462208968887862008-08-21T11:35:00.000-04:002008-08-21T11:35:00.000-04:00http://nattyadams.blogspot.com/2008/08/atheist-tor...http://nattyadams.blogspot.com/2008/08/atheist-torn.htmlNathaniel "Natty" Adamshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13234285695444495712noreply@blogger.com