tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post8013295868499620968..comments2023-10-10T08:02:18.073-04:00Comments on Rationally Speaking: Shermer on Stein and “Expelled”Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger43125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-59087619683825139032008-04-23T03:34:00.000-04:002008-04-23T03:34:00.000-04:00just saw Expelled; Ben Stein's goal in making this...just saw Expelled; Ben Stein's goal in making this flick (i gather) was not to win any popularity contests (this by itself helps to validate his message)... his goal was to promote free thought, especially more thinking about motivations that drive American academia and a lot of other behind-the-scenes worldview that we tend to take for granted.Pat Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02397839550090715753noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-73386244076151228242008-04-19T06:51:00.000-04:002008-04-19T06:51:00.000-04:00Anonymous,"I don't need to sign. You know who I am...Anonymous,<BR/><BR/>"I don't need to sign. You know who I am."<BR/><BR/>Yes, but it is very rude not to tell the rest of us. If this trend continues I will have to change the settings of the blog to require registration before one can post comments. That would be a shame.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09099460671669064269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-46647789413565639302008-04-18T11:15:00.000-04:002008-04-18T11:15:00.000-04:00"I didn't expect anyone to take me seriously at al..."I didn't expect anyone to take me seriously at all."<BR/><BR/>I didn't. <BR/><BR/>And that because you and your friends are not sincere about being "serious thinkers". You can talk the sophisticates talk, but certainly don't walk the walk. If you were doing thusly, you'd consider what happens to most every potential victim of a lifestyle when one choses a given life's path and philosophy.<BR/><BR/>THAT is what constitutes a serious thinker in anyone's book. <BR/><BR/>I don't need to sign. You know who I am.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-79119972214595612632008-04-16T16:08:00.000-04:002008-04-16T16:08:00.000-04:00Sheldon said: However, I disagree on this. The fil...Sheldon said: <I>However, I disagree on this. The film is the topic of the thread. ID/creationism may be irrelevant in the actual world of academia and science, but this religous based assault on secular education and culture is and will continue. At least here in the U.S..</I><BR/><BR/>Fair enough. While I personally am losing interest in the film and it's malcontents, I have not lost interest in the broader issue of religiously-motivated attacks on political structures, cultural features, and scientific practice.<BR/><BR/>Sheldon also said: <I>Several articles back, I suggested we ignore Cal, but of course I am the worst offender at feeding the troll.<BR/><BR/>I have a hard time letting bullshit go unchallenged, but I will attempt to exercise some restraint. </I><BR/><BR/>Hey, don't change your behaviour on my account. If you feel better after letting fly against cal's rampant bullshit, please do so. I was just ranting a bit into the void, and I didn't expect anyone to take me seriously at all.TheBrummellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08973380652057861796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-1037140193414050042008-04-15T17:49:00.000-04:002008-04-15T17:49:00.000-04:00Let's take a cue from PZ Myers: http://scienceblog...Let's take a cue from PZ Myers: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/04/bloggers_you_have_a_job_to_do.php<BR/><BR/>Dembski is the one that should be <A HREF="http://expelledexposed.com/" REL="nofollow"><I>Expelled</I></A>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-49028409640098297482008-04-15T11:49:00.000-04:002008-04-15T11:49:00.000-04:00And I just heard that they ripped off that beautif...And I just heard that <A HREF="http://richarddawkins.net/article,2460,Expelled-ripped-off-Harvards-Inner-Life-of-the-Cell-animation,David-Bolinsky" REL="nofollow">they ripped off</A> that beautiful Harvard animation <A HREF="http://multimedia.mcb.harvard.edu/media.html" REL="nofollow">"The Inner Life of the Cell"</A>. A shorter version with very nice music is <A HREF="http://www.studiodaily.com/main/technique/tprojects/6850.html" REL="nofollow">also available</A>.<BR/><BR/>What would you expect from "Intelligent" Designers, anyway? It might be arguable whether they are intelligent, but honesty... they've heard of it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-40871938176035604192008-04-14T23:35:00.000-04:002008-04-14T23:35:00.000-04:00Funnily enough, tonight I just saw the first TV ad...Funnily enough, tonight I just saw the first TV ad for "Expelled". So it might get more well known after all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-58401829819763087882008-04-14T12:29:00.000-04:002008-04-14T12:29:00.000-04:00brml "Yes, please. I've been ignoring Cal's rambl...brml "Yes, please. I've been ignoring Cal's ramblings here for months. It keeps me from getting (too) unhappy."<BR/><BR/>Good for you! Canadians are by far, AND SO MUCH MORE progressive than lowly, war-mongering Americans.<BR/><BR/>Isn't that right?<BR/><BR/>And definitely, as Progressively thinking people, we don't want to be unhappy, either. WE certainly do not want to hear how promiscuity is unquestionably WEAKENING the human race. That CERTAINLY must be the most unhappy thought thinkable. And mostly by harming women with increasingly higher numbers of cervical cancer and other auto-immune diseases. In case you don't care about what is happening to women, there is plenty on the horizon for men too. Promiscuity is an equal opportunity destroyer. <BR/><BR/>But someone has to be the realist and not a wimp, BRML. <BR/><BR/>Ignore THAT. <BR/><BR/>calAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-65108004984313613402008-04-14T12:05:00.000-04:002008-04-14T12:05:00.000-04:00Sheldon,It really doesn't matter if you can't trus...Sheldon,<BR/><BR/>It really doesn't matter if you can't trust someone because of a misspelling of "discipline", or that you could not read properly what I wrote about the Dr. at UNM. It matters far more to question, for once, the honesty of your own self and motivations. <BR/><BR/>Regardless of what you may think, the good and humble dr. did more than most people do in their lifetime, that's for sure. And he did it all while being continually faithful to God. <BR/><BR/> "The Dr.[ ] was active in the community in both a professional and volunteer capacity. He was the Senior Associate Dean at the UNM School of Medicine, a Regents professor, and a two-term president of the UNM Faculty Senate. He was also president of the NM Heart Association for two terms, and a visiting distinguished scholar at the University of Adelaide in South Australia."Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-91075275950213458222008-04-14T00:00:00.000-04:002008-04-14T00:00:00.000-04:00Brummel,Yep, you are right. Several articles back...Brummel,<BR/>Yep, you are right. Several articles back, I suggested we ignore Cal, but of course I am the worst offender at feeding the troll.<BR/><BR/>I have a hard time letting bullshit go unchallenged, but I will attempt to exercise some restraint. <BR/><BR/>"And why are so many people continuing to point out the lies, fallacies, fabrications, and stupidity of Expelled, when by any reasonable standard the beast is dead?"<BR/><BR/>However, I disagree on this. The film is the topic of the thread. ID/creationism may be irrelevant in the actual world of academia and science, but this religous based assault on secular education and culture is and will continue. At least here in the U.S..<BR/><BR/>The film Expelled could possibly influence peoples perception of the issues.<BR/><BR/>I notice you are a grad. student in Canada, so it is likely this is less an issue up there in the north.Sheldonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03743116454273042629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-78011672480767956262008-04-13T20:55:00.000-04:002008-04-13T20:55:00.000-04:00For example, why, despite the massive negative att...<I>For example, why, despite the massive negative attention focused on this film, have most people of my acquantance never heard of Expelled</I><BR/><BR/>That's true, it is curious. I myself only "heard" of it online, through the critics. Otherwise, were I not paying attention to this type of stuff, I probably would never have heard of this "movie"...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-245338156715473682008-04-13T12:26:00.000-04:002008-04-13T12:26:00.000-04:00Perhaps she should henceforth be ignored.Yes, plea...<I>Perhaps she should henceforth be ignored.</I><BR/><BR/>Yes, please. I've been ignoring Cal's ramblings here for months. It keeps me from getting (too) unhappy.<BR/><BR/>Lots of interesting ideas and conversations come up here on Rationally Speaking (not surprising for a blog run by a Philosopher-Scientist), but many get sidetracked by this one fool. The urge to shoot down her arguments is strong, but I would respectfully request the other people here resist that urge.<BR/><BR/>I do not hope nor expect Cal will grow bored at the lack of attention and leave. Rather, I hope and expect the discussion around here can focus on questions that are actually worth pondering.<BR/><BR/>For example, why, despite the massive negative attention focused on this film, have most people of my acquantance never heard of <I>Expelled</I>, and do not know what Ben Stein has been up to since the demise of that game show he hosted?<BR/><BR/>And why are so many people continuing to point out the lies, fallacies, fabrications, and stupidity of <I>Expelled</I>, when by any reasonable standard the beast is dead? I mean, really, what's the point in discussing the off-camera anti-semitic comments of one of the IDiots in the film at this point? Anyone cabable of critical review of the movie has already realized it is complete and utter nonsense. I'm not suggesting we don't talk about these IDiots and the things they say, but consistently tying it to the film seems like a waste of time at this point. Can we move on, please?TheBrummellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08973380652057861796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-24290535870262503432008-04-12T19:19:00.000-04:002008-04-12T19:19:00.000-04:00"Lets just say his work combined the study of one ..."Lets just say his work combined the study of one disciple that had not been studied with another." <BR/><BR/>What?<BR/>Just as I thought Cal, you cannot even provide any specifics. You cannot even tell us in a coherent sentence what your nephew studied, or name a grant or award he received. Nor can you name that professor. <BR/><BR/>BTW, disciple is a follower, like in a disciple of Christ. Discipline on the other hand in this context is a field of study.<BR/><BR/>Cal said:<BR/>"One of the Deans in the Bio dept. of UNM who passed away a few years ago."<BR/><BR/>Yep, this is a pattern of Cal's. Convenient anecdotes of persons she knows to support her "arguments" (its hard to even call them that), that would seem to be lies. Lies for Christ, thats what they are. <BR/><BR/>Of course anybody who spends any time near a university knows that academic departments are headed by chairs, not deans!Sheldonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03743116454273042629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-67350239308752950352008-04-12T17:21:00.000-04:002008-04-12T17:21:00.000-04:00Cal has the most preposterous ability to link the ...Cal has the most preposterous ability to link the most preposterous things to the most preposterous situations imaginable.<BR/><BR/>She also can come up with relatives (who must remain nameless) and dead people who cannot be questioned, who have written the unalterable truth about anything and everything, whose writings cannot be revealed lest these august personages names be sullied<BR/><BR/>She has easily blabbered on using fully 40-50% of the total posts and has not said one intelligent OR intelligible thing. Nothing but religiously oriented psychobable (sic). <BR/><BR/>Perhaps she should henceforth be ignored.<BR/><BR/>Thnks for the anonymous post Kimpatsu. I have brought this up several time in the past to know avail. The annymous poster just can't bear to reveal themselves.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-71472929458880116522008-04-12T15:25:00.000-04:002008-04-12T15:25:00.000-04:00Sheldon, I love my nephew & there is no way I'd l...Sheldon,<BR/> <BR/>I love my nephew & there is no way I'd lead anyone to where he works. <BR/><BR/>Lets just say his work combined the study of one disciple that had not been studied with another. <BR/><BR/>Evolutionary studies seem less inclined towards agricultural biology because it does not make the point very well for evolution. a person , otoh, who attaches little or no validity to the philosophy of evolution will find things that the average guy who has been told he can think "this" or write papers that only prove evolution, will not have the flexibility to notice. <BR/><BR/>The other man was "the original" vitamin D doctor, i think. He's been published all over the world. He's deceased now so I really don't care to have anyone dragging his name thro the mud. <BR/><BR/>Interestedly tho, I ran into a friend the other night who works at the U over the Phds, research and grants. I wish I could tell you what I know about what is actually being researched and what it means, but I don't think it would be alright for me to do that. You need to figure out what is going on out there for yourself. Not much of it points to the fortification of evolution, that's for sure. <BR/><BR/>Most people have no concept of how much research has to be done to combat promiscuous lifestyles. So did the philosophy of evolution in fact free anyone up from religious restraint to be all they could be, sleep with anyone they please? NO, quite the contrary. The belief itself certainly has instead placed us in a much greater bind as far as emergent diseases are concerned.<BR/><BR/>On that count, we have become a very unclean society. Over 60 % of people who are walking the streets, teens to the aged, have "something" STD related. And that is completely unnecessary and preventable. The numbers use to be like 20-25 %. <BR/><BR/>Evolutionary philosophy, (throw off restraint.. blah, blah, blah) you will find out one day, is a killer. It saves no lives whatsoever. <BR/><BR/>calAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-81335335057250266972008-04-12T02:10:00.000-04:002008-04-12T02:10:00.000-04:00So let's suppose we "teach the controversy" in sci...So let's suppose we "teach the controversy" in science class?<BR/><BR/>What happens when a well-meaning science teacher decides to teach the strengths and weaknesses of Intelligent Design?<BR/><BR/>Put your fan on low, if you know what's good for you.paul01https://www.blogger.com/profile/06306440944379183875noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-85939831148841584722008-04-11T22:42:00.000-04:002008-04-11T22:42:00.000-04:00Just an observation, but a number of people includ...Just an observation, but a number of people including Cal are posting under the name "Anonymous". Do you think we could possibly have people signing their own names to their posts, to ease confusion? Massimo even asked that ew avoid using Anonymous in the past.<BR/>Thank you.Kimpatsuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06156184889287692016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-21941812954185054782008-04-10T19:45:00.000-04:002008-04-10T19:45:00.000-04:00Cal said:".. which he has, and has been awarded gr...Cal said:<BR/>".. which he has, and has been awarded grants and other commendations...Plus, I know plenty, even prominent biologists, who don't buy into it at all.One of the Deans in the Bio dept. of UNM who passed away a few years ago. A good man and scholar who totally disbelieved the validity of the theory of Evolution." <BR/><BR/>Cal,<BR/>Specifics please? Name of nephew and grant name and comendations. Name of biology professor and publication where he stated his disbelief in evolution. This can be checked relatively easy you know?<BR/><BR/>You should really go and read the review by Shermer that Massimo linked to. In it he refers to the debates within evolutionary biology and the scholars who criticize "neo-Darwinism", yes, they exist and are contributing to evolutionary theory. <BR/><BR/>The problem is that ID creationist haven't contributed any viable theory as an alternative to evolution, just "Gosh, that it is sooo complex it must have been created." The argument from incredulity.Sheldonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03743116454273042629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-20468278192255863712008-04-10T18:02:00.000-04:002008-04-10T18:02:00.000-04:00And not only is the anecdotal evidence abundant, i...And not only is the anecdotal evidence abundant, it's also always so convenient as to almost be suspicious.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-88308547807518692622008-04-10T14:31:00.000-04:002008-04-10T14:31:00.000-04:00There's always a lot of anecdotal evidence availab...There's always a lot of anecdotal evidence available in Calworld.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-7476761171908289832008-04-10T11:54:00.000-04:002008-04-10T11:54:00.000-04:00Joseph, 1. No one assumes that most biologists a...Joseph, <BR/><BR/>1. No one assumes that most biologists accept evolution. <BR/><BR/>My nephew is an environmental biologist and he is nothing of the sort. He and I hashed that out for the first several years he was at UM, but eventually he realized that the "evolutionary blah, blah, blah" was just the club you had to belong to to get you papers published. Fortunately, when you reject the easy route, as he eventually did, you come up with the truly innovative, intelligent one, which he has, and has been awarded grants and other commendations for thinking outside of "your box". <BR/><BR/>Plus, I know plenty, even prominent biologists, who don't buy into it at all. One of the Deans in the Bio dept. of UNM who passed away a few years ago. A good man and scholar who totally disbelieved the validity of the theory of Evolution. <BR/><BR/>Biologists need not be "wrong" or necessarily evil. Obviously, that would have to depend entirely on the person. <BR/><BR/>So if Stein is such a lightweight, why does he bother you all so much? <BR/>He must have made good points, otherwise "we" would be ignoring him. <BR/>cal<BR/><BR/>::: running down the hill screaming our heads off...'OH NO, THE KINGDOM is in great peril on account of a lowly ACTOR!!!':::<BR/> :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-17475359759215332452008-04-10T10:02:00.000-04:002008-04-10T10:02:00.000-04:00"I'm in good company then. A lot of really decent ..."I'm in good company then. A lot of really decent scientists and philosophers were ridiculed severely and even harmed physically for what they believed to be true."<BR/><BR/>Ah, the Galileo posit. For the "world's foremost physicist", you sure have trouble creating a logical deductive argument. You seem to fall much more favorably in the Targ and Puthoff category of ostracized scientists (those whose unaccepted ideas never gain a foothold) than the Galileo grouping.<BR/><BR/>DSDShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01278996581707374606noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-13597364419831408362008-04-10T06:58:00.000-04:002008-04-10T06:58:00.000-04:00Joseph,P1: Biologists accept evolution.P2: Evoluti...Joseph,<BR/><BR/>P1: Biologists accept evolution.<BR/>P2: Evolution is evil and wrong.<BR/>C: Biologists are wrong.<BR/><BR/>The funny thing is that the syllogism is correct. It's assumption 2 that doesn't hold...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09099460671669064269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-32527712319465702312008-04-09T23:24:00.000-04:002008-04-09T23:24:00.000-04:00I'm in good company then. A lot of really decent s...<I>I'm in good company then. A lot of really decent scientists and philosophers were ridiculed severely and even harmed physically for what they believed to be true.</I><BR/><BR/>Cal, do you remember formal logic from high school? Stuff like "If P then Q"?. If "all crows are black birds", are "all black birds - crows"? If "a lot of famous scientists were ridiculed severely and (?) harmed physically", are a lot of people who are "ridiculed severely and harmed physically - really good scientists"?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03877117916846565598noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-24299052679550142462008-04-09T21:09:00.000-04:002008-04-09T21:09:00.000-04:00"Nature is nothing but one largish sort of economy..."Nature is nothing but one largish sort of economy. Ever noticed this? ...."<BR/><BR/>No, I never have. I don't see how "nature is nothing but" (your words) the production, distribution, exchange, and consumption of goods and services. These are human social activities. While "nature", if by that we mean biological organisms and their interactions with the environment, is something quite different. <BR/><BR/>"Who could possibly better qualified to understand the big picture?"<BR/><BR/>Even if we assumed that an economist might be the best person to understand this big picture, why on earth would we neccessarily pick Ben Stein? First of all, his wikipedia entry says that he is actually a lawyer, and is only the son of a noted economist.<BR/><BR/>Second, the problem is "reality" and the big picture is so varied and complex that it requires a division of labor of natural and social scientists to study and attempt to understand it. Astronomers, physicists, chemists, biologists, geologists, philosophers of science, and a whole other division of labor of social scientists.<BR/><BR/>There is no reason to think that a part-time actor/lawyer/economists has anything really special to offer. Unless he can make his case on the merits of his arguments and evidence alone. Unfortunately Stein just offers the same old creationist platitudes and cliches.Sheldonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03743116454273042629noreply@blogger.com