tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post651137749238351551..comments2023-10-10T08:02:18.073-04:00Comments on Rationally Speaking: Jerry Coyne on free willUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger143125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-47974604199922597762012-04-07T16:18:57.877-04:002012-04-07T16:18:57.877-04:00The idea is that someone invested a lot of thinkin...The idea is that someone invested a lot of thinking about minerals with the assumption that minerals are red, blue, green, etc. When he finds something that conflicts with this assumption, he says the discovery is an illusion. <br /><br />Free will deniers love the assumption that humans are collections of molecules. Funnily enough, when it comes to the other indefinable functions of the human mind (conscious knowledge, intelligence, and judgment) they have a different psychological strategy of denial. They say animals have conscious knowledge, intelligence, and judgment.David Roemerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09355814302168194267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-69245614628082268032012-04-07T14:26:53.357-04:002012-04-07T14:26:53.357-04:00The white mineral is clearly representing free wil...The white mineral is clearly representing free will here, and Duhem thinks we should not dismiss it. But can you explain how the drawer organizing process relates to the current debate and the views of free will deniers (of which I am one).Evan Webberhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05564570221921494227noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-21726190696710166572012-03-21T09:47:20.456-04:002012-03-21T09:47:20.456-04:00mufi,
If you are partial to a two stage model, wh...mufi,<br /><br />If you are partial to a two stage model, why not place the indeterminism of the first stage at the beginning, 13.7 billion years ago, in your model? Does it make any difference to place it later on during a decision making process?stephen lawrencehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02826883633883189758noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-66667961673100838082012-02-19T18:30:10.187-05:002012-02-19T18:30:10.187-05:00What you call "subjective judgment," I c...What you call "subjective judgment," I call bad judgement. As I said, rational people judge that humans have free will. <br /><br />This gives rise to the question: What is free will? What is the self? What is the relationship between myself and my body? As you express it, "Who are 'you'".<br /><br />The evidence supports the insight that there is no answer to these questions. It is a mystery. It is difficult to understand this answer because it is paradoxical in that you know something because you don't know it. The way you can express this mystery is to say humans are embodied spirits.David Roemerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09355814302168194267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-50828885837772843202012-02-19T17:15:19.809-05:002012-02-19T17:15:19.809-05:00I'm not offended by your suggestion that I hav...I'm not offended by your suggestion that I have bad judgement. That would obviously be your opinion. My stance could more correctly be labeled as suggesting you are using your "subjective judgement" rather than accepting the facts as they are, and applying a system of logical thought to arrive at the correct answer.<br /><br />As of yet, nothing you have provided constitutes evidence, and thus, it's true, that is the best you can do, because the evidence does not support your "subjective judgement".<br /><br />No offense, but you have continued to avoid the central issue. Who are "you"? And, as a product of other forces, of whatever nature, this "you" can only make choices and take actions prescribed by the influence of those other forces. There can be no other answer.Constructive Conservativehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06997815178562029838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-19513002965591561492012-02-18T19:20:27.426-05:002012-02-18T19:20:27.426-05:00I definitely agree with your position. Furthermore...I definitely agree with your position. Furthermore, it is very difficult for me to even imagine that people do not have free will. These notions stymie my entire thinking process insofar as it is just something that we see and do every day; therefore, to assume that they don’t exist is either scholarly misinterpretation or the fruit of a very narrow one.<br /><br />With the greatest of respect to Jerry, it seems to me that existentialism is what is being investigated here. Moreover, your extremely well-written rebuttal essay made mention of some of the greatest thinkers which led me to believe existential thought was at the core of the debate.<br /><br />So Jerry alleges that people do not have free will. Then what does he call it when people are influenced to act based on illusion? Consequently, Jerry must be reminded that the mere acts of his same species do not use free will or freedom of choice in his world. It is very hard for me to think that I am not in the position to use my will or choices or equally, choose to do nothing at all given any variable that presents “X and Y.”<br /><br />Dostoevsky’s example in "Notes from the Underground" of the man needing to visit his dentist for treatment at all costs – or simply to pronounce his free will decides not to go because he was demonstrating his free will as well as freedom of choice is for me that very act. As is getting out of the burning aircraft, wreaked vehicle, or believing or not in God.<br /><br />Alright, whew! Everything that Jerry is espousing is an oxymoron or a pure contradiction in terminology. Although he espouses that “morality is an illusion” therein lies the answer to his notion of a kinder world. Illusion is an interesting word; however, in all definitions illusion requires something of a deceptive appearance, idea, and/or sensory perceptions. It is much the same as trickery. Illusionary determinants are those which deceive the senses or mind mostly by an object appearing to exist that really is not the object at all or and perhaps more typical is the notion that the object appears to be one thing when it is in fact something completely different.<br /><br />I find that Jerry’s reasoning is tremendously flawed insofar as he suggests that we use deceptive means to produce something (an illusion) predicated upon something that is deceptive, ergo as a delusion, false impression, fantasy, or at the very least a figment of one’s imagination in decision making. Either way one chooses to build a kinder world that in itself would be something built on deception.<br /><br />I do not think you are missing anything. I certainly believe that is a kind way of dismissing Jerry’s essay of pure unadulterated rubbish. <br /><br />j.p. schillingJ. P. Schillinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01095425553021247540noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-3084463366587959072012-02-18T17:50:59.005-05:002012-02-18T17:50:59.005-05:00Great, you understand all four reasons or bits of ...Great, you understand all four reasons or bits of evidence and you are unpersuaded that humans have free will. That is the best I can do. <br /><br />You are worried about offending me by implying that I have bad judgment. I am not. Nor should you be offended by my saying you have bad judgment. <br /><br />It is the nature of the human mind that we marshal evidence and decide whether an insight is true or false. Nonetheless, having bad judgment is something to be ashamed of, like being immoral.David Roemerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09355814302168194267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-62031777189954109482012-02-18T15:20:40.092-05:002012-02-18T15:20:40.092-05:00Yet, no offense, none of them rise to the level of...Yet, no offense, none of them rise to the level of "evidence". Of course neither can they as "freewill" is an illusion.<br /><br />"The evidence that humans have free will:"<br /><br />"1)It is clear we have it when we do something that takes a lot of will power. It is so easy not to do it that there is no doubt we are responsible for our actions. "<br /><br />No. Example...sexual activity...biological and environmental factors may affect one's behavior while still providing "evidence" of will power.<br /><br /><br />"2)People who say it is an illusion live their lives as if they had free will."<br /><br />Because life is about choices, again, nothing in the fact that one makes choices proves "freewill" as opposed to evidence of the influence of biology and environment.<br /><br />"3)It is obvious that people who say it is an illusion are assuming the universe consists only of atoms and molecules. When confronted with evidence this assumption is wrong, they say the evidence is an illusion."<br /><br />No, and again.....Add God, and you still have an outside force making "you" who you are.<br /><br />"4)Animals do not have free will, just like they don’t ask questions and decide whether or not an hypothesis is true. In this case, free will deniers say that animals do ask questions and do decide whether or not something is true. "<br /><br />Why don't animals have free will? Each time my dogs argue over a scrap of food they have the choice to do so or not.Constructive Conservativehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06997815178562029838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-63976463665484169292012-02-17T07:23:30.056-05:002012-02-17T07:23:30.056-05:00I’v marshaled and enumerated four pieces of eviden...I’v marshaled and enumerated four pieces of evidence about free will and have upon reflection decided that humans have free will. Your statement that I have not proven it means you think I have poor judgment, no? If you understand all four of my reasons, then I am saying you have bad judgment.David Roemerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09355814302168194267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-60930054817817517182012-02-17T01:03:11.338-05:002012-02-17T01:03:11.338-05:001. Unfortunately that doesn't prove freewill....1. Unfortunately that doesn't prove freewill. <br />2. Sure.<br />3. No, as I have stated several times, either way we did not make ourselves.<br />4. Sure they do, as much as we do.<br />5. So far, you have really suggested nothing to support your case.<br />6. My case. Either.<br />A. We are simply a product of our genetics and environment...or,<br />B. "God" made us...<br />which means that either way there is no "I", in the sense that we had anything to do with making the I who the I is.Constructive Conservativehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06997815178562029838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-59811759085794238522012-02-16T11:23:30.634-05:002012-02-16T11:23:30.634-05:00The evidence that humans have free will:
1) It is ...The evidence that humans have free will:<br />1) It is clear that we have it when we do somehting that takes alot of will power. Evidence that humans have free will:<br />1)It is clear we have it when we do something that takes a lot of will power. It is so easy not to do it that there is no doubt we are responsible for our actions. <br />2)People who say it is an illusion live their lives as if they had free will.<br />3)It is obvious that people who say it is an illusion are assuming the universe consists only of atoms and molecules. When confronted with evidence this assumption is wrong, they say the evidence is an illusion.<br />4)Animals do not have free will, just like they don’t ask questions and decide whether or not an hypothesis is true. In this case, free will deniers say that animals do ask questions and do decide whether or not something is true.David Roemerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09355814302168194267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-1992223414472748802012-02-16T10:22:03.368-05:002012-02-16T10:22:03.368-05:00Unfortunately your premises are built on a foundat...Unfortunately your premises are built on a foundation of sand.<br /><br />Act I being "fire will burn me" leads right to "never putting your hand into a fire again". How you use that in an attempt to prove the existence of freewill is beyond me.Constructive Conservativehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06997815178562029838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-24536116828956097082012-02-16T10:16:40.287-05:002012-02-16T10:16:40.287-05:00Sorry. I missed your response.
Well, yes, free wi...Sorry. I missed your response.<br /><br />Well, yes, free will is an illusion. I don't think I every suggested differently.<br /><br />Free will is not a "mystery".Constructive Conservativehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06997815178562029838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-24295250364193883242012-02-11T17:42:43.086-05:002012-02-11T17:42:43.086-05:00Recent events suggest that Jerry is a "bona f...Recent events suggest that Jerry is a "bona fide" loose cannon of the first order. His attack on Krauss as an accommodationist, and immediate apologetic withdrawal when confronted by his victim is the hall mark of a loose cannon who acts without thinking and is totally devoid of a recognizable guiding strategy. Sadly, his latest victim, a misguided, ignorant young woman who made the mistake of drawing Jerry’s fire by writing an admittedly deplorable denunciation of the theory of evolution for her school newsletter did not have the “standing” to obtain an apology like the one given Krauss. What manner of professional educator goes out of his way to pillory a young woman who clearly needs guidance and education, rather than being treated to a brutal, atheistic “auto de fe.” <br /><br />My conclusion from all this is that Jerry’s opinions, at least those outside his primary field of expertise, are unworthy of the notice they are given here and elsewhere. Thus his strident support of a physiological explanation for free will is nothing more than that of a bully who has found another pulpit from which to castigate others who do not share his particular point of view. He reminds me more of a 16th Century Jesuit than a 21st Century atheist.Military Historianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06514992685724327133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-29846020380886248532012-02-10T21:38:50.551-05:002012-02-10T21:38:50.551-05:00Well said! We are, as Bodelaire said, "besieg...Well said! We are, as Bodelaire said, "besieged by demons" (desires and beliefs) who compel us to carry out their secret agendas. The good news, as you point out, is that if we become aware of the presence of these demons they may be unmasked and lose some of their ability to demand blind obedience to their provocations.Terry Findlayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18016237697233690706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-39432021869243560832012-02-08T11:18:06.196-05:002012-02-08T11:18:06.196-05:00It takes a lot of will power to write a book. It i...It takes a lot of will power to write a book. It is so easy not to write it that there is no question we are responsible for our actions.David Roemerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09355814302168194267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-43207652762422272292012-02-08T11:15:36.611-05:002012-02-08T11:15:36.611-05:00The answer is obvious: the Big Bang.The answer is obvious: the Big Bang.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09099460671669064269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-59751894741366034532012-02-08T11:14:05.241-05:002012-02-08T11:14:05.241-05:00I wonder, who made Jerry write "his" boo...I wonder, who made Jerry write "his" book?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-71397100013126959852012-02-06T15:50:03.137-05:002012-02-06T15:50:03.137-05:00I don't understand why you say "it's ...I don't understand why you say "it's true we can make choices" and "our genetics and environment determine the choices we make"?<br /><br />Isn't this just another way of saying free will is an illusion? Carl Sagan once said, "Carl Sagan is the name for a collection of molecules". Is this what you are saying? <br /><br />Why do you say, "regardless of the answer?" There is no answer. Free will is a mystery.David Roemerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09355814302168194267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-30188084903881279112012-02-06T15:23:17.329-05:002012-02-06T15:23:17.329-05:00Perhaps so, but regardless of the answer, we "...Perhaps so, but regardless of the answer, we "know" that we didn't create ourselves.<br /><br />I might add, even if our soul created our physical selves, this still would not mean we created ourselves.<br /><br />If we didn't create ourselves, than, while it's true we can make choices, it is also true that it is our genetics and environment which determine the choices we make.<br /><br />If there is no "you", there can be no free will.Constructive Conservativehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06997815178562029838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-40246559775924781312012-02-06T07:33:24.038-05:002012-02-06T07:33:24.038-05:00The alternative suggestion or theory is that it is...The alternative suggestion or theory is that it is a mystery. We can comprehend what a human being is, but we can't define or explain what a human being is. Humans are embodied spirits or indefinabilities that become conscious of their own existence. <br /><br />I think, therefore, I am. That is all we know.David Roemerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09355814302168194267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-76299211786287738212012-02-05T14:43:56.640-05:002012-02-05T14:43:56.640-05:00You indicated that you disagreed with my suggestio...You indicated that you disagreed with my suggestion that "we" are the sum of genetics and environment. I'm asking for an alternative influence which include "us", as created by "us".Constructive Conservativehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06997815178562029838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-47314000677098273432012-02-05T10:53:57.088-05:002012-02-05T10:53:57.088-05:00I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “point”...I’m not sure I understand what you mean by “point” and “my position.” In my mind, there are observations which requires paying attention and questions which requires intelligence. Possible answers to questions are theories. I only know and understand three theories about free will: 1) Free will is an illusion. 2) Humans have free will. 3) Free will can’t be defined. <br /><br />If you have explained another theory but I don’t understand it, it may be my fault. Or it may be your fault.David Roemerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09355814302168194267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-250662193811241532012-02-05T01:53:45.450-05:002012-02-05T01:53:45.450-05:00Sorry, it was in another article...Here is the exa...Sorry, it was in another article...Here is the example I attempted to use to make my point...<br /><br />Perhaps the following illustration will make the truth of my position a bit clearer.<br /><br />Assume for the moment that we have constructed a missile which as of yet has no guidance system. If we were to launch such a missile we might reasonably assume that one of two things might happen. If the thrust provided by the engine was powerful enough, the missile, at least initially, would proceed in the direction determined by the angle of the initial thrust followed by erratic changes of direction, or, if the power generated was not enough to result in a successful launch it might either stay on the pad, or perform erratically on the ground, rather than in the air. Whatever scenario we may choose, the missile would not be "choosing" the path of its flight.<br /><br />Likewise, if we were now to install, or program a previously installed, guidance system, the missile would still not have what one might call "freewill". Each and every "decision" made by the guidance system would depend on the choices given to it by the programmer, perhaps based on a series of "if/then" commands. In essence, the "choices" made by the guidance system would not be independent choices, no matter how skilled the programmer, but would still depend on the choices provided in the initial programming, coupled with the physical characteristics of the missile itself.<br /><br />Same site, I just don't want to link excessively, as that's not the point.Constructive Conservativehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06997815178562029838noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-89947950569328038332012-02-05T01:49:41.766-05:002012-02-05T01:49:41.766-05:00Interesting.
In terms of #2...What else?Interesting.<br /><br />In terms of #2...What else?Constructive Conservativehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06997815178562029838noreply@blogger.com