tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post4769057152011705370..comments2023-10-10T08:02:18.073-04:00Comments on Rationally Speaking: Greta Christina on “mission drift” - A commentaryUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger41125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-62288106496537984732013-05-20T09:47:50.599-04:002013-05-20T09:47:50.599-04:00"Women in Secularism Conference" From ye..."Women in Secularism Conference" From yesterday:<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOnhLnP3q7s<br /><br />Thanks, J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02171817892612070924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-58251027150358030252013-05-18T11:33:41.107-04:002013-05-18T11:33:41.107-04:00At the end of the scientific tunnel of theories an...At the end of the scientific tunnel of theories and uncertainty is the absolute, I hope One day they drift this Way.<br /><br />== MJAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01897595473268353450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-24630280840160172132013-05-17T15:15:18.684-04:002013-05-17T15:15:18.684-04:00Narrow-ed, I know, but not the post.Narrow-ed, I know, but not the post.Thanks, J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02171817892612070924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-50945817279586233252013-05-17T13:18:22.391-04:002013-05-17T13:18:22.391-04:00"Narrowed minded" but how?! They/she hav..."Narrowed minded" but how?! They/she have specific issues in mind, no doubt, and most women seem to be in general agreement regarding some basic tenets of feminism anyway, in my opinion, esp. liberal women. <br />Btw, I've seen that Myers has attended conferences, sharing the stage with feminist skeptics. I'll provide examples to illustrate where I was coming from with inferring that "old guard" has content, means something other than narrow minded, which doesn't make sense anyway since old guard skeptics' focus has been fairly large and diverse over the years. Feminists have been very outspoken about the crucial need for skepticism to include feminism and feminist issues. And some of them have argued that the skepticism and atheist scenes or movements, whatever you want to call 'em, are "hostile" to women and sexist. One incident involved Michael Shermer being accused of sexism...and atheists in general. See "Feminism Disconnected: A Response to Ophelia Benson and a Caution on Tribalism in Secularism" (scroll down) <br />http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/12-12-12/<br />See "Point of Inquiry" podcast hosted by sympathetic male host Chris Mooney, particularly Amanda Marcotte in the ep. titled "Skepticism Needs Feminism". <br />Here's some u-tube vlogs addressing various dust-ups and generally counterproductive negativity (almost said "drama" but that'd be sexist) involving skeptic/atheist feminists' charges of sexism (and you'll notice on the right of your screen countless others). Richard Dawkins is a "white supremacist" (and not understanding of elevator ethics).<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUQdID3EBAg<br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy45RNtHCvs<br />Thanks, J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02171817892612070924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-66298441031928354042013-05-16T19:19:58.028-04:002013-05-16T19:19:58.028-04:00What isn't wasted on blog comments? ;)What isn't wasted on blog comments? ;)Paul Paolinihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04580285404702244031noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-74434915256636446492013-05-16T19:11:09.949-04:002013-05-16T19:11:09.949-04:00I'm not exactly sure what Myers means by "...I'm not exactly sure what Myers means by "the Old Guard," or whether Myers and Christina mean to indicate the same group of people, or if either mean "old white men." I inferred it to mean "certain narrow-minded founders of the skeptic movement." <br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14083678860329607969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-57118569895836466712013-05-16T16:48:51.320-04:002013-05-16T16:48:51.320-04:00Right, including feminist issues who the old white...Right, including feminist issues who the old white men who are the old guard neglected. Are you saying she didn't mean this? Been a lot going on with feminists and the skepticism movement.. <br />Thanks, J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02171817892612070924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-36940895583680940242013-05-16T13:55:23.165-04:002013-05-16T13:55:23.165-04:00I think econ is not playing to the strengths (comp...I think econ is not playing to the strengths (comparative advantage?) of skeptics, seeing as their metier is more scientific than economic. Arguably, they could learn the economics, but there's already a highly critical-thinking econ blogosphere.<br /><br />A couple more:<br /><br />4. Energy science/policy.<br />5. Criticism of science & philosophy of environmental & consumer ethics movements (animal rights, vegetarians/vegans, fair trade, locavores, anti-GMO groups).<br /><br />This last would be useful, as there is a rich vein of sloppy thinking in such movements, with e.g., people obliviously presenting arguments that are straightforward naturalistic fallacies.ianpollockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15579140807988796286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-82716218188488301612013-05-16T13:31:44.871-04:002013-05-16T13:31:44.871-04:00>When I was a kid, boys were as boring as mud, ...>When I was a kid, boys were as boring as mud, and girls were torturously luminescent angels. This wasn't something I decided; I was assailed.<br /><br />Paul, your poetic imagery is wasted on blog comments.ianpollockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15579140807988796286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-60019285077957010442013-05-16T13:28:49.449-04:002013-05-16T13:28:49.449-04:00I keep hearing this, especially from PZ, but I hav...I keep hearing this, especially from PZ, but I haven't heard any of it "from the horse's mouth." Who is telling him "not to go after religion"? I have seen him attack Genie Scott and Chris Mooney for their willingness to treat religious believers like humans, and I and others have pointed out when PZ has made false and/or hypocritical attacks against religious believers. I even pointed out when Richard Dawkins made a silly attack on "Christians" for "believing transubstantiation."<br /><br />But I believe you should be smart, sensible, and sensitive when attacking anything like this, and I've been attacking all sorts of crazy beliefs (mostly Christian religious beliefs) for decades. I can _believe_ that someone like Chris Mooney would get a little touchy-feelier than I am willing to commit to myself, but I haven't caught him at it. What I actually saw was PZ attacking Chris Stedman for making him go into a church in Morris, when it was actually UMM students who selected the locations. I didn't hear PZ apologize for the silly attack, either.<br /><br />But I'd really like to see some examples of "squishy" atheists "attacking" PZ and others for valid attacks on believers and beliefs.BubbaRichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10334093723773620510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-43861374319396217662013-05-16T12:15:30.651-04:002013-05-16T12:15:30.651-04:00Tom, good points. And, of course, the staff at Rea...Tom, good points. And, of course, the staff at Reason doesn't have much in the way of natural science grad degree holders on staff, I'm sure.<br /><br />That said, racialists who are also atheists (Miele, Sarich et al) will attempt to use misinterpreted science to justify, if not a self-made self, a naturalistic view of differences in selves.Gadflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13075757287807731373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-2835996719303174432013-05-16T11:12:48.713-04:002013-05-16T11:12:48.713-04:00Seems that Christina borrowed from Myers...
&quo...Seems that Christina borrowed from Myers... <br /><br />"...The modern skeptical movement is built on a very narrow foundation; a lot of the Old Guard spend an incredible amount of effort restricting the range of allowed topics..."<br /><br />http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/01/27/a-common-complaint-i-hear-a-lot-nowadays/Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14083678860329607969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-51684141649181745012013-05-16T11:08:37.423-04:002013-05-16T11:08:37.423-04:00It seems Jamy Ian Swiss has a huge problem with Ne...It seems Jamy Ian Swiss has a huge problem with New Age pseudoscience, but not with religion per se because well, after all, there are many atheists who aren't skeptics; he gives as example anti-vaxer Bill Maher, and so Swiss concludes atheism without skepticism is worse for society than is skepticism with theism. On the one hand, I can understand Myers objection to this sort of arbitrariness as applied to the scope of the skeptical movement. If Swiss can chastise Dawkins for overlooking Maher's anti-science for the good of the atheist movement, then why can't Myers chastise Swiss for overlooking theists while applying unscientific skepticism to New Age beliefs (after all, no one can prove the "law of attraction" doesn't exist)? I guess after reading and/or listening through this possibly never ending debate, I fall in with Novella's take on the scope of the movement... "Let a thousand lights shine..." with a few qualifications.<br /><br />http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/bigfoot-skeptics-new-atheists-politics-and-religion/<br /> Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14083678860329607969noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-4201472907942469722013-05-16T09:34:13.722-04:002013-05-16T09:34:13.722-04:00Early progressives were virtually all Christian an...Early progressives were virtually all Christian and of course creationists. Once upon a time the left was largely made of the working class -imagine that-Thanks, J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02171817892612070924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-36105611059172223752013-05-16T09:30:03.639-04:002013-05-16T09:30:03.639-04:00Massimo, swap "old guard" for "whit...Massimo, swap "old guard" for "white male" because that is what she means, it is code. So that isn't simply a problem they have with "respecting elders". "Check your privilege". ;-) Thanks, J.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02171817892612070924noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-90217119236424440102013-05-16T08:02:05.213-04:002013-05-16T08:02:05.213-04:00Yes, although there’s an historical and cognitive ...Yes, although there’s an historical and cognitive connection between being a naturalist and being progressive, there’s no unbreakable causal or conceptual link, and personality factors (e.g., the Big Five: neuroticism, extraversion, openness, agreeableness, and conscientiousness) play a big role in determining one's political orientation. As you point out, one can espouse naturalism and not be particularly liberal – atheist libertarians such as Shermer and Tibor Machan and the staff at Reason (a libertarian magazine) are cases in point. Still, naturalism does rule out some traditional justifications for conservative positions on criminal and social justice. It rules out, for instance, the appeal to the self-made self as the bearer of ultimate moral desert, who deserves to be rich, poor, punished or rewarded because human choices transcend causality in some respect And the empiricism that underlies naturalism will always make naturalists more likely than supernaturalists to question traditional, faith-based, or otherwise non-empirical claims to authority and knowledge. It’s no coincidence that scientists and university professors tend to be liberals, since their career commitment to unfettered inquiry militates against traditionalism and authoritarianism. Tom Clarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08414754510736349472noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-84491425515763866982013-05-15T18:10:56.943-04:002013-05-15T18:10:56.943-04:00I've been asking this question in a slightly d...I've been asking this question in a slightly different form for years. The way I ask it is:<br /><br />You have in front of you a religious person whose politics are right wing and you are given a magical power to change one or the other aspect. Which do you choose. <br /><br />I've gotten a lot of interesting answers over the years, my sense is that people in the skeptics movement are more likely to say politics than people in the atheist movement. And I get a smattering of people who say it's an impossible question so they won't choose.Jerry Schwarzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17113403820938623979noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-17884292473058077352013-05-15T17:47:41.906-04:002013-05-15T17:47:41.906-04:00"Aggressively hijacking the term for the purp..."Aggressively hijacking the term for the purposes of the atheist movement may benefit atheists in the short term but doesn't do much for society at large."<br />Can you give an example of where atheists hijack the term? Obviously there are atheists who use it when it's applied to gods, but why is that use hijacking? Do atheists misapply critical thinking when it comes to gods? If so, can you illustrate how?Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12460075520187803334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-25850205826096947052013-05-15T17:09:40.547-04:002013-05-15T17:09:40.547-04:00Thank you Ryan, for making my point. I found this ...Thank you Ryan, for making my point. I found this post quite interesting, and agreed with much of it. When I got to the part about sexual orientation, though, I found that many of the logical and practical points about the line between science and the "real world" had been contradicted.<br /><br />We don't live in a perfect world where the FACTS and LOGIC reign supreme. Therefore, we must sometimes use strategies that WORK over those that Aristotle and Plato would prefer due to their superior reasoning. As you state, "gay conversion therapy" is predicated upon the notion that homosexuality is CHOSEN. The fact that these attempts fail is proof that it is NOT chosen. As so long as we leave open the idea that sexual orientation is a choice, we also send the message that it might be changed.Sheldonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13878122044193840736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-65979625159642649332013-05-15T17:09:27.702-04:002013-05-15T17:09:27.702-04:00Thank you Ryan, for making my point. I found this ...Thank you Ryan, for making my point. I found this post quite interesting, and agreed with much of it. When I got to the part about sexual orientation, though, I found that many of the logical and practical points about the line between science and the "real world" had been contradicted.<br /><br />We don't live in a perfect world where the FACTS and LOGIC reign supreme. Therefore, we must sometimes use strategies that WORK over those that Aristotle and Plato would prefer due to their superior reasoning. As you state, "gay conversion therapy" is predicated upon the notion that homosexuality is CHOSEN. The fact that these attempts fail is proof that it is NOT chosen. As so long as we leave open the idea that sexual orientation is a choice, we also send the message that it might be changed.Sheldonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13878122044193840736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-18177187874228318012013-05-15T17:04:44.801-04:002013-05-15T17:04:44.801-04:00'But let’s be clear that skeptics and atheists...<i>'But let’s be clear that skeptics and atheists should also be interested in truth and intellectual honesty, wherever it may lead.'</i><br /><br />lovely, you are true to your ideals as a virtue ethicist.<br /><br />If you are not too averse to listening to a card carrying Catholic, this is my take. Critical thinking is a skill and a process. It may be applied to any number of issues, not necessarily defined by or limited to those that interest the atheist movement. It is not defined by issues, it is defined by its methodology.<br /><br />I suggest the central mission should be the development of critical thinking throughout society, regardless of the issues. Aggressively hijacking the term for the purposes of the atheist movement may benefit atheists in the short term but doesn't do much for society at large.<br /><br />Real critical thinking, if it is honest, does not have a narrow partisan or ideological foundation. There are no presumptions except honesty and intellectual rigour, motivated by a determination to follow the facts and uncover the truth.<br /><br />Given my background I also think values have a role to play and I suggest that important values are respect combined with a willingness to listen to the other party.labnuthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12216731311329758699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-22253889754254270002013-05-15T14:15:42.605-04:002013-05-15T14:15:42.605-04:00Agree and more. That's why, until Skeptics(TM)...Agree and more. That's why, until Skeptics(TM) address the libertarian "cover" issue more, I prefer the term "critical thinking."Gadflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13075757287807731373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-67232107390557429282013-05-15T14:14:44.774-04:002013-05-15T14:14:44.774-04:00The connection's not that strong. There's ...The connection's not that strong. There's many a skeptic who's got feet in the libertarian camp besides Shermer. Shermer also has had, for years, two known racialists on the masthead of his mag.<br /><br />Per other commenters talking about related issues, and broadening the focus of skepticism, this is all part of why I prefer the term "critical thinking" to skepticism.<br /><br />Meanwhile, some Gnus aren't explicitly humanist, at least not in the degree that they want to do humanist outreach even if it's not explicitly wrapped up with Gnu Atheism.Gadflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13075757287807731373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-14566524523257657632013-05-15T14:12:03.831-04:002013-05-15T14:12:03.831-04:00I agree w/Massimo ... it's funny at least that...I agree w/Massimo ... it's funny at least that somebody is accusing HIM of "scientism."Gadflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13075757287807731373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-13231777251598007392013-05-15T14:11:27.064-04:002013-05-15T14:11:27.064-04:00Martin Luther: "I'd rather be ruled by a ...Martin Luther: "I'd rather be ruled by a good Turk (i.e., Muslim) than a bad Christian." It IS an interesting question.Gadflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13075757287807731373noreply@blogger.com