tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post3720465811960118528..comments2023-10-10T08:02:18.073-04:00Comments on Rationally Speaking: How to Want to Change Your MindUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger37125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-22116608282370454352013-09-16T14:42:42.153-04:002013-09-16T14:42:42.153-04:00I think your idea about a Meta-bias poisoning disc...I think your idea about a Meta-bias poisoning discussions and debates on big issues is exactly what happens so much of the time. Socrates nailed it more than 2000 years ago. He taught Plato, and Plato taught Aristotle; so I think that's not a bad pedigree. Even people who seem to be accomplished professionals can develop and defend nutty propositions (e.g. Arthur Conan Doyle and his preoccupation with ferries). I'm interested to know the truth. Truth trumps triumph in debate every time, bar none. In that regard, I'm happy to be wrong.robbeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16581722418502023083noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-21862846317432411552011-01-07T13:16:16.410-05:002011-01-07T13:16:16.410-05:00I applaud efforts such as these. We know doubt is ...I applaud efforts such as these. We know doubt is not a pleasant condiditon, and constant doubt would not usually lead to inceased knowledge/action, but I see most problems as thinking problems. If we could change how we think, we would have fewer problems (granting there will be disagreements and resource competition) and the greatest obstacle to changing thinking are various cognitive biases. I suggest looking at the wikipedia entry which lists the 40+ ways we fool ourselves.<br />Out of Julia's list I think one of the most important is to see a conversation as a discussion more than a debate, and as an exploration to learn things with the person you are talking to. It is better for both parties (assuming the other party is amendable to such discourse)That which is called Darrenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11184639934792074389noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-10238304292141404822011-01-05T12:04:28.600-05:002011-01-05T12:04:28.600-05:00In some ways this is great, but I find myself stil...In some ways this is great, but I find myself still completely befuddled by the rationalist sentiments that lie behind it. Hmmmm: how do I put this in the most diplomatic way possible? One of the most "verbally violent" arguments I have ever experienced was when I tried to calmly explain a subtle but widely-accepted psychological concept to a person who did not understand it (his background did not include the requisite technical expertise in cognitive psychology, so he missed the point from the outset and became enraged for no reason). By itself, this would be of little interest... except that the argument was with someone who prides himself as being an ultra-rationalist (a person you actually quote in your article). What to conclude from this? People who give advice about being "rational" can continue to be wrong without ever retracting, and defame an innocent opponent in perpetuity, while at the same time delivering more and more advice to others about how to be rational. If you ask me, there is something profoundly wrong with this picture!Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02105972566991709086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-13454105809134668672010-04-06T19:07:08.318-04:002010-04-06T19:07:08.318-04:00Awesome!!
Bookmarked!!Awesome!!<br />Bookmarked!!Danielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00260062183800916162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-88443518109321302232010-03-01T20:39:41.967-05:002010-03-01T20:39:41.967-05:00I recall learning back in school that when people ...I recall learning back in school that when people have a hard time changing beliefs in the face of contradictory evidence that there is usually survival value attached to that belief. So ultimately their attachment to the belief is a survival mechanism -- nothing to be poo-pooed.<br /><br />It would seem like a good idea to ask oneself then how one thinks one's survival is dependent upon this belief -- and to then examine the truthfulness of that.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00341814479358083810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-21009558411469953662010-02-25T18:27:30.313-05:002010-02-25T18:27:30.313-05:00Define "truth."Define "truth."blurphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04418110340690060689noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-50041820407091701102010-02-18T01:57:34.606-05:002010-02-18T01:57:34.606-05:00This entire post is just silly: Massimo Pigliucci ...This entire post is just silly: Massimo Pigliucci is no more of an accomodationist than is Richard Dawkins. And to claim that somehow he is, as I said, just silly. Massimo, in his new guise as a philosopher, would like us to respect some philosophical nuances that we, as scientists, frequently, in his opinion, gloss. Except we don't. He has provided no evidence for this claim, and even a superficial reading of Dawkins (as if he were the spokesperson for all atheists scientists) would reveal that even Dawkins doesn't.<br /><br />But, I don't want to rail on Massimo here. I read his blog because I respect and agree with most of what he writes. On this point, though, he has missed it entirely. The debate is NOT about his preferred characterization---not even close.John R. Vokeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03822243132435056442noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-1418761090654533732010-02-16T12:39:39.656-05:002010-02-16T12:39:39.656-05:00In university I joined a competitive debating club...In university I joined a competitive debating club. We did impromptu debate (we only learned the topic 10 minutes before the debate started)and that taught us quickly to evaluate arguments and be able to argue from different points of view. <br /><br />This was nearly as valuable a learning experience as the rest of grad school. It taught me how to see issues clearly, to spot the location of disagreement, and also to spot dishonest tactics.<br /><br />When you consciously understand why you support a particular position it is easy to change it if you find one of reasons for the support is wrong.T-Timehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06955091902658888855noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-22070524354215786632010-02-16T11:49:44.576-05:002010-02-16T11:49:44.576-05:00Eh, I'm not so sure about this. Generally spea...Eh, I'm not so sure about this. Generally speaking these are good things to remember in seeking the truth, but sometimes it's worthwhile to put the blinders on and fully immerse yourself in an idea, staving off nay-sayers who might stop you on the rabbit trail (yay for terrible mixed metaphors).<br /><br />If I stopped to fully consider every seemingly decent counterexample, I'd never get anywhere with an idea.<br /><br />Nobody wants to be a zealot, but the world sure would be boring without them.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10587529365942525191noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-74968343147837072742010-02-16T00:56:57.592-05:002010-02-16T00:56:57.592-05:00{I posted this to FB on 2/11, but it ended up on o...{I posted this to FB on 2/11, but it ended up on one of your friend's wall. So I'm reposting it here.}<br /><br />You are absolutely wrong. (Just kidding, lol.)<br />I think what you have written is a great start to dealing with this subject.<br />That's my 1st suggestion: "Recognize that even after you reach a conclusion, it only begins to answer your questions."<br />My 2nd suggestion is something you did, but didn't list as a suggestion: "Identify what personal (emotional, psychological, political, ideological, economic, etc.) stake you have in taking the position you have taken and express it."<br />My 3rd suggestion is also something you did: "Tell other people (including those you suspect you won't agree with) that you really want to hear their opinions."duboisisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11516800795554589412noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-38330231839774108692010-02-15T12:04:35.754-05:002010-02-15T12:04:35.754-05:00Jari,
you can, you need to install the NetworkedB...Jari,<br /><br />you can, you need to install the NetworkedBlogs application on FaceBook.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09099460671669064269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-64527721570660741582010-02-15T06:32:32.976-05:002010-02-15T06:32:32.976-05:00Why can't I follow this blog in Facebook?Why can't I follow this blog in Facebook?Jarihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12577113290358369582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-1320549201278111652010-02-15T04:20:41.166-05:002010-02-15T04:20:41.166-05:00Being conscientious over the motive instead of the...Being conscientious over the motive instead of the premises is a must. Whether or not one has fallible premises in their need to be correct, being a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion can be extremely serpentine. You loose a flexibility and ability to concede and adapt accordingly.<br />In debate or argument, focus instead on "what is it that I am doing and what am I propagating" instead of "mine is right, and yours is wrong" whilst being in the process of striving for the dividends of a won debate. <br /><br />-What is most important, expressing truth or winning?Benjaminhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16243202155693814605noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-25525331118840809772010-02-14T14:34:35.559-05:002010-02-14T14:34:35.559-05:00Learn to be comfortable with being wrong? What do ...Learn to be comfortable with being wrong? What do you mean, "being wrong"!? :-P<br /><br />Good post indeed, something to think about. If we could also learn to be graceful when "winning" the arguments, that would make everything much easier...J. Marcelo Alveshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09967299561849915314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-7116623433104703722010-02-14T12:06:58.925-05:002010-02-14T12:06:58.925-05:00Remember that what is "right" and what i...Remember that what is "right" and what is "wrong" is decided by the winner. Arriving at the winning position does not necessarily require you to be right.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12556934446061700503noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-90645187741355480532010-02-13T23:01:53.668-05:002010-02-13T23:01:53.668-05:00thinking a little more about this, hmmmm I don...thinking a little more about this, hmmmm I don't know<br /><br />Socially, its a very very good idea to be flexible and imagine you are someone else examining your 'problematic' view, opening up the way to change your belief.<br />as per Julia.<br /><br />But I don't think the post was about pandering, modifying your beliefs to be socially acceptable. I think the post was about right and wrong as regards truth.<br /><br />This stuff just does not exist in a vacuum, never did never will. Its all relative and requires context. 2+2=4 is right and true for 99.99999546% of us who are living in a world bound by these forms of mathematics. For a few busy imagining that 2+2 must = 1 because all things must merge, so 2+2 is equivalent to 1+1 is equivalent to 1, then they are right and the others are wrong. Otherwise they could not continue to tackle this math.<br /><br />So maybe this belief modification is more about how to survive this world and be more rewarded by others in the world by agreeing with them. It is not necessarily pandering. It is seeing their point of view. and identifying enough with the proponents of the alternate belief so that the differences in beliefs become weaker as the identification grows.<br /><br />Put differently, you have no reason to modify your belief that luge is one bizarre sport until you start hanging out with a luge team.DaveShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15840516954793215700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-49260487550673900612010-02-13T17:00:09.123-05:002010-02-13T17:00:09.123-05:00Don't really know any techniques to cope with ...Don't really know any techniques to cope with being wrong - must be because I'm always right!Mortenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10759256586095218454noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-1410504240665917952010-02-13T15:45:14.551-05:002010-02-13T15:45:14.551-05:00As I understood it there is no contradiction in re...As I understood it there is no contradiction in realizing you are wrong about something and being a strong arguer for your point. As someone said here before, realizing it can make you a stronger arguer and earn more respect.<br />On the other hand it is hard, as many others here pointed out. There is so strong a social pressure on not being wrong. It takes honest and humble counter debaters so to say, to earn that respect of admitting you are wrong. Many people just use the situation of having "combated" someone, in different ways.Jojjehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05703561074763409951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-39768827786053833892010-02-12T19:05:55.100-05:002010-02-12T19:05:55.100-05:00I disagree with this, pretty strongly. The human ...I disagree with this, pretty strongly. The human desire to be right and defend a point is part of the reason humans have accomplished so much.<br /><br />There is a corollary, though, that is critical for this: even when strongly backing a point in an argument, grant your opponent the same humanity you grant yourself, and be willing to concede the point.<br /><br />The genius of humanity is that we can harness social levels of cognition, and we do this much more effectively by strongly arguing a point. These things you're saying can definitely improve your own personality and attitude and health, but if they weaken your ability to argue your point, then they are counterproductive.BubbaRichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10334093723773620510noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-26085397135837261942010-02-12T14:53:50.349-05:002010-02-12T14:53:50.349-05:00At first I was thinking "very good points&quo...At first I was thinking "very good points" but then I tried to apply them to my own experience and realized they don't quite fit me. Why? Because if I'm not sure of a point, I don't argue for it to begin with. And if I am sure of a point (the Washington Monument is in Washington D.C. not Moscow) then I present it as fact and if the fact is not accepted then I drop the topic. I don't see it as my obligation to beat the truth into someone. Maybe I've internalized Julia's points enough that I just avoid debates where I have the possibility of being wrong. <br /><br />Related quote for today: "When two opposite points of view are expressed with equal intensity, <br />the truth does not necessarily lie exactly half way between. <br />It is possible for one side simply to be wrong."Die Anywayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10632857696534495049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-18319051529966353502010-02-12T03:51:52.766-05:002010-02-12T03:51:52.766-05:00Great post, thanks!. One to pin up where one can ...Great post, thanks!. One to pin up where one can read it many times a day.Cavall de Querhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17687910584661433398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-5385994762406828072010-02-12T01:52:12.807-05:002010-02-12T01:52:12.807-05:00One of the cool things about being able to admit ...One of the cool things about being able to admit you're wrong is that it gives you an opportunity to BS your way into a place that doesn't quite concede your old stand, accepts just enough of the other argument and to answer those in advance who will use the 'waffle' word, well its just another form of creativity.DaveShttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15840516954793215700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-14067192122957997112010-02-12T01:28:36.909-05:002010-02-12T01:28:36.909-05:00I can't remember the last time I found a piece...I can't remember the last time I found a piece of advice that was simultaneously as insightful and as implementable. Thank you.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11198576583599370270noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-30130048257257466212010-02-11T19:05:02.948-05:002010-02-11T19:05:02.948-05:00Thank you for posting these ideas; I just fell int...Thank you for posting these ideas; I just fell into this trap last night in a discussion and hurt a friends feelings; had to apologize, take a deep breath, slow down, and reconsider my arguements and we did reach a better understanding.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02254875164498734545noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-15553578875139743392010-02-11T13:10:31.631-05:002010-02-11T13:10:31.631-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07573847127040276949noreply@blogger.com