tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post3098725046031810556..comments2023-10-10T08:02:18.073-04:00Comments on Rationally Speaking: Response to Jonathan Haidt’s response, on the academy’s liberal biasUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-7739717038173262972011-03-13T09:29:49.608-04:002011-03-13T09:29:49.608-04:00Has it been considered that a rational examination...Has it been considered that a rational examination of the available evidence may lead to a liberal view point?<br /><br />And then there is the terrible anti-Republican bias among the teachers in Wisconsin.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-60105254714651512512011-03-02T06:04:17.836-05:002011-03-02T06:04:17.836-05:00Why is science and its results excluded from bias ...Why is science and its results excluded from bias in this discussion? I think that's already been proven.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01350991564052145570noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-89875162236422341892011-02-17T15:06:52.804-05:002011-02-17T15:06:52.804-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Baron Phttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04138430918331887648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-27593348924117490242011-02-17T13:33:45.678-05:002011-02-17T13:33:45.678-05:00Hmm, I really don't think I'm being Clinto...Hmm, I really don't think I'm being Clintonesque here. And the slides in the talk make it clear that the google example was central to the argument, especially as data are concerned. But this exchange has gone on long enough, considering that it's not even about a peer reviewed paper.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09099460671669064269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-81804008435362986232011-02-17T12:23:39.089-05:002011-02-17T12:23:39.089-05:00Dear Prof. Pigliucci:
My response to this post is...Dear Prof. Pigliucci:<br /><br />My response to this post is here:<br />http://www.yourmorals.org/blog/2011/02/haidts-final-response-to-pigliucci/<br /><br />Jonathan HaidtJon Haidthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02251797057285084956noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-79046210026344819742011-02-16T12:59:42.154-05:002011-02-16T12:59:42.154-05:00To provide a very clear example (one that supports...To provide a very clear example (one that supports Gadfly's argument), look at how the American College of Pediatricians split from the American Academy of Pediatrics over gay rights issues. In the face of evidence contradicting their beliefs, these people simply declared mainstream pediatrics to be a biased liberal enemy and went off to form a society affirming their own "facts", and this is a common story in conservative denials of science.<br /><br />What was the American Academy of Pediatrics supposed to do to retain these conservatives? Could they ignore the issue or support false controversies, and still maintain any semblance of professional integrity? Is it a dangerous moral tribalism to support and inform families with gay parents or children, without tip-toeing around conservatives' senses of moral purity or religious authority? At what price could we buy such a false sense of balance?Sean (quantheory)https://www.blogger.com/profile/00094694851707164734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-52198552088581130282011-02-16T12:11:33.418-05:002011-02-16T12:11:33.418-05:00Google search counts are worse than useless data (...Google search counts are worse than useless data (worse than useless because they are not only inaccurate, but give a misleading appearance of being accurate to the uninitiated). I've noticed this for some time, and it's described in a bit more detail <a href="http://blog.xkcd.com/2011/02/04/trochee-chart/" rel="nofollow">on the xkcd blag</a>. It's simply improper to compare two sets of results unless one uses the API or other tool designed by Google to be more accurate.<br /><br />Regarding the article more generally, Haidt seems to be mainly concerned that liberal academics are forming a moral-tribal group. There's a few odd things about this. First off, it's not clear that this is happening to such a degree that it's a serious problem. Surely a shared tribal view of themselves as intellectuals is, whether good or bad, inevitable. And surely most of them also define themselves in part by moral opposition to other groups (at a bare minimum, sociopaths and discredited groups such as Nazis and white supremacists, which most conservatives would also consider themselves in moral opposition to). The formation of a very loosely morally united tribe is not by itself a problem, especially given that the designation "liberal" still encompasses a range of views and priorities.<br /><br />Another odd thing about this is that, by Haidt's own research, conservatives are more prone to exclusionary tribal behavior than liberals! While this does not excuse liberals from having any concern in the matter, it should be at least be considered that the problem may not be that liberal psychologists see conservatives as a morally inferior out-group, but in fact the reverse may be the case.<br /><br />The question is then not about social psychologists trying to see conservatives in a better light, but instead asking the question: what kinds of steps are worth taking to improve how conservatives view social psychologists? It's an exercise in P.R. and credibility, not correcting discrimination, and is really both a more complex issue, and one that seems much more distant from the actual practice of research itself.<br /><br />This is especially concerning given that a lot of conservatives' dislike of science (both hard and social) is due purely to disliking the results. There's not a biology without evolution or a climatology without climate change. Similarly, there's not a psychology where being gay makes you violent and unhappy and being Christian makes you a saint, nor is there a socioeconomics where everyone deserves their station in life. To stretch out into other disciplines, there's not a true history that backs up conservative views on American history or history of religion. In these cases, if someone wants to get more conservatives into academia, it's the conservatives who have to change to fit the research, not the scholarship which needs to become more conservative.Sean (quantheory)https://www.blogger.com/profile/00094694851707164734noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-26714767954813893672011-02-16T01:48:02.103-05:002011-02-16T01:48:02.103-05:00I do not see a problem. What is unusual or strang...I do not see a problem. What is unusual or strange that science and education attracts more liberal types and business - more conservative types?gralmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09173653406724173051noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-71931900576395873622011-02-15T14:18:30.496-05:002011-02-15T14:18:30.496-05:00What of those social psychologist that can not be ...What of those social psychologist that can not be defined as either?Kraig Gradyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04234783065045199904noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-49670513106736029002011-02-15T06:40:14.512-05:002011-02-15T06:40:14.512-05:00Ah, I commented too early, it just took very long....Ah, I commented too early, it just took very long. Nevertheless, what I wrote is still true in comparison to many other blogs I have seen where one will be either deleted or told to go elsewhere after the first disagreement.Alex SLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00801894164903608204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-67263479225009647842011-02-15T01:46:31.851-05:002011-02-15T01:46:31.851-05:00Excellent post!
I may be mistaken and speaking to...Excellent post!<br /><br />I may be mistaken and speaking to early, but after waiting a few hours it seems that not every civil comment agreeing with your position makes it through moderation over there. Just saying: I really appreciate the openness of discussion and tolerance in the atheist and rationalist blogosphere, be it here, or at WEIT or B&W. You do not find that everywhere.Alex SLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00801894164903608204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-904413934551192352011-02-15T01:27:38.680-05:002011-02-15T01:27:38.680-05:00Very good, but one nitpick: "logical possibil...Very good, but one nitpick: "logical possibility"? Surely you wanted to make a strong claim there, that it was not just logically possible but somewhat probable. Perhaps it was meant as comedic understatement, but it comes off as weasly.<br /><br />Otherwise, this response is on-target.The Uncredible Hallqhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09565179884099473943noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-26541193214216192392011-02-14T23:03:46.953-05:002011-02-14T23:03:46.953-05:00I have yet to see a valid argument for why the ide...I have yet to see a valid argument for why the identification of liberal versus conservative is even a valid consideration in terms of striking a balance. It seems like this could be a false balance that some people would like to see. The problem is that it is not clear that these vague ideologies should be equal in academics (or in society). Another problem is that each category is pretty diverse, so what would we like to balance here?ccbowershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11686910795750392419noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-74405807444817121732011-02-14T16:09:47.800-05:002011-02-14T16:09:47.800-05:00Massimo, I found one of Haidt's biggest blind ...Massimo, I found one of Haidt's biggest blind spots (were he wanting to do actual social science) was ignoring the rise of conservative alternatives to many social science societies, the expansion of new programs at religious universities, etc.<br /><br />http://socraticgadfly.blogspot.com/2011/02/academia-hotbed-of-liberal-bias-or.htmlGadflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13075757287807731373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-76601318812263706862011-02-14T14:25:25.828-05:002011-02-14T14:25:25.828-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Baron Phttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04138430918331887648noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-88310712325094095662011-02-14T13:55:16.168-05:002011-02-14T13:55:16.168-05:00Adriana, point well taken.Adriana, point well taken.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09099460671669064269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-32631572954383900052011-02-14T13:09:24.004-05:002011-02-14T13:09:24.004-05:00Massimo, I agree with your criticism of Haidt, mai...Massimo, I agree with your criticism of Haidt, mainly because his assertions and accusations (after all he is accusing the field of bias and discrimination), but I do think Haidt has a point when he took offense at your word "disingenuous" when you said he was either an incompetent psychologist (which you thought not likely) or being disingenuous in his agenda. The word "disingenuous" does imply insincerity. Insincerity is lying, after all. A different word would have perhaps been better. "Disingenuous" is a pretty strong word. <br /><br />dis·in·gen·u·ous<br /> /ˌdɪsɪnˈdʒɛnyuəs/ Show Spelled[dis-in-jen-yoo-uhs] Show IPA<br />–adjective<br />lacking in frankness, candor, or sincerity; falsely or hypocritically ingenuous; insincere: Her excuse was rather disingenuous.Adrianahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11449319476888682571noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-37412206506291275842011-02-14T12:26:43.905-05:002011-02-14T12:26:43.905-05:00I'm in Argentina and I get 12 results (24 with...I'm in Argentina and I get 12 results (24 without omitting results) for “conservative social psychologist” and 22(46 without omitting results) for “liberal social psychologist”.<br />But I fail to see the relevance of this other than practising google-fu.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07982409667756307764noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-52061373550750375812011-02-14T11:33:38.199-05:002011-02-14T11:33:38.199-05:00One note -- Google results are tailored to your lo...One note -- Google results are tailored to your location and, unless you've disabled the setting, to you personally (based on your search history). Phone a friend in another part of the country and do the same search at the same time: you won't get exactly the same results.Weshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12364216421823893242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-38151377433769340692011-02-14T11:21:20.820-05:002011-02-14T11:21:20.820-05:00Yowps.Yowps.Weshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12364216421823893242noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-60663585809406215792011-02-14T10:39:19.243-05:002011-02-14T10:39:19.243-05:00*enthusiastic (but polite) applause**enthusiastic (but polite) applause*Gerthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08912876098401519141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-80267993134353923172011-02-14T10:22:51.179-05:002011-02-14T10:22:51.179-05:00You may already know that it makes a difference in...You may already know that it makes a difference in Google whether you use quotation marks or not. Without them, the words need only appear in the same document, as opposed to consecutively. <br /><br />So, as of today, I get "About 7,600,000 results" on the "liberal" version of the string and "About 1,090,000 results" on the "conservative" version, both <b>without</b> quotation marks. <b>With</b> quotation marks, the numbers drop to 3,050 and 2,460, respectively - or from 6.97x to 1.24x in proportional terms, a big difference.<br /><br />But, either way, all this tests for is what folks (including Haidt, Tierney, and their commentators) are publishing to the web, according to the Google search algorithms. I strongly agree that it says little or nothing about political bias (or even self-selection, for that matter) in academia.mufihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01818949854678769391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-58407731595716913262011-02-14T09:11:43.481-05:002011-02-14T09:11:43.481-05:00booya!booya!aphttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06833922298250450324noreply@blogger.com