tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post2950646247209043031..comments2023-10-10T08:02:18.073-04:00Comments on Rationally Speaking: On debunking relativesUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-78154862238638882362012-04-06T15:02:24.566-04:002012-04-06T15:02:24.566-04:00"... from time to time I wonder why I’m not q..."... from time to time I wonder why I’m not quite as active in debunking my relatives’ bizarro beliefs ..."<br /><br />With your relatives, you are guaranteed and/or obligated to a lengthy relationship with many opportunities for interaction. In the long run, maintaining the lines of communication will increase your chances of making a difference (usually, sometimes "getting in their faces" is the way to go). Even the largest flood will not carve the Grand Canyon (and yes, I mean it *that* way too ;), but a small river work over long periods of time will do the trick.<br /><br />With strangers, you are not likely to encounter them again, so you can make the biggest impact by hitting as hard as you can. Trying to avoid hurting the relationship is a waste of effort if there is not likely to be a relationship in the first place.<br /><br />So I think you may be judging yourself too harshly by calling it a "mix and match approach". I would rather describe it as adapting tactics to fit the terrain, while maintaining a consistent strategy throughout.scottdhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16146093115729637066noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-9547030267521475452012-04-03T20:22:18.927-04:002012-04-03T20:22:18.927-04:00Nicely put.Nicely put.ianpollockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15579140807988796286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-56951314133538258542012-04-03T20:18:36.579-04:002012-04-03T20:18:36.579-04:00Oof, I sympathize. I find those conversations extr...Oof, I sympathize. I find those conversations extremely awkward in the meat-o-sphere, even when they only touch on one controversial topic. You managed to get religion, alt medicine, 9/11 conspiracy, anti-Jewish conspiracy AND Illuminati conspiracy?!<br /><br />I don't think you did too bad. Realistically, we can only do so much in a conversation without it turning hostile & vitiating the whole point. Just plant some seeds... which you did, rather artfully it sounds like.ianpollockhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15579140807988796286noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-88989515563141590622012-04-03T14:09:39.256-04:002012-04-03T14:09:39.256-04:00I really don't make a distinction between my r...I really don't make a distinction between my relatives or strangers in the way I engage a discussion of this sort. While I keep it polite, I'm relentless on my position. I stop when the other party doesn't want to discuss the matter anymore, but if they keep with the bullshit, I keep with my arguments. If a relative stops talking to me because of me, I just have this to say: good riddance, and his/her loss.buttheadrulesagainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17019750986423516925noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-48808877848503973552012-04-03T12:39:18.028-04:002012-04-03T12:39:18.028-04:00so,
unless the plane impact REDEFINED THE LAWS OF ...so,<br />unless the plane impact REDEFINED THE LAWS OF GRAVITY, which pragmatically speaking it cannot ever happen, then there was something more to it....<br /><br />I believe they want to know WHAT THAT WAS.<br />It is part of a 'human being human' to logically find the facts that they have figured out. Then, as they see what really happened, they demand a court of trail for the criminals who caused it. <br /><br />I mean 3000+ plus American lives were taken and it caused us to a decade and more of war.<br />This is how serious the situation is.<br /><br />( to be continued..)Borjatheoremhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00751309420976818816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-87452965111288989522012-04-03T12:39:05.146-04:002012-04-03T12:39:05.146-04:00I am willing to sit with you and share a few ideas...I am willing to sit with you and share a few ideas of WHY we should audit the Fed and question their actions in our present day government. I feel that part of the reason why we can't constructively change the United States of America for the better is because we have allowed COMPANIES like the Federal Reserve "Organization" to control all of the means of LIFE as a citizen in any sovereign republic. <br /><br /> From taking down small governments through inflation across the globe to the new 'intellectual' idea of printing out money, are small examples of why the Fed, (which they are)....is doing what most of us would not do.<br /><br />Humanly speaking, there is a balance under our reflective Equilibrium and as a modern society we tend to relate to peace under a fact intuitive principal that drives the world to a better tomorrow.<br /><br />I for example find the truth in things, no matter how they shape my experiences in existence, i accept them, because they are part of the rest that makes our world: Reality.<br /><br />"I don’t believe in (most) conspiracy theories is because — humans being humans — any plot involving large numbers of people and long periods of time is almost guaranteed to both fail and become known. People are simply not that smart (which leads to the frequent failure of plots), and they love gossip (which is how those involved are discovered)."<br /><br />If there is a reason not to believe in a conspiracy theory should be because of the experience in a theory itself.<br />A conspiracy exists when you realize there are things in a small group working against any other similar, outnumbered or numbered. Now, constructively speaking: under any pragmatic demand, something becomes true when the facts are given and the experiences are met after those facts. <br /><br />Philosophically speaking: Contingency / Hence your take : "any plot involving large numbers of people and long periods of time is almost guaranteed to both fail and become known"<br /><br />I argue for 911 'truth-ers' only because what they are claiming 911 to be is an inside job under practical pragmatic terms.<br />If there is something we ought to learn from present day constructivism is that we should not allow our practical reasoning to put aside factual arguments that derive to a truth.<br /><br />Avoiding the truth is really easy.... The 911 truth movement deserve respect and their given right to a trial against the REAL tyrants who, as they allegedly speak, caused 911 just because of the experiences that are given when we analyze what had happened, and happens IN A 9-11. 9-11 is a(scenario)<br /><br />Pragmatically speaking: A building will burn for hours, days, even WEEKS before it can be contained and no matter the structure it will not fall unless it was deliberately done so.... If this is the case, then someone INSIDE THE UNITED STATES provided access to the building, sawed off frameworks, yada yada....PRAGMATISM.<br /><br />and to rebuttal your argument on 'we are just humans being humans'- so we are bound to collapse into what makes us humans which is an imperfect state... i agree..but through times, you are able to control that experience that you humanly can...<br /><br />For example, being a King back centuries ago or the Roman Empire... people, being people, were able to control the masses until their contingency played a role in aesthetics as it is universally accepted, causing the empires to crumble.<br /><br />As life come and go into existence, so does experiences and information...that does not describe the capacity of the experience and it will never will.Borjatheoremhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00751309420976818816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-81294820843039648642012-04-03T03:27:16.132-04:002012-04-03T03:27:16.132-04:00Being a skeptic/critical thinker entails a certain...Being a skeptic/critical thinker entails a certain amount of tragedy, especially when you aren't preaching to the choir. Sadly, you have the cure for a disease most people don't know they have, don't want to be diagnosed with, and certainly don't want to be cured of. And, to top it all off, you know your medicine is painful, partial and more about managing than curing. Like any good physician, you think twice about treating your own relatives, especially when the prognosis is not good.<br /><br />I'd say you did the best you could. I find that one gentle question is often more effective in offering a blinkered person an entree to the truth. Good luck, and remember that no matter how much you might want to take their commitment to nonsense as a personal affront, they probably don't even realize that their are not only turning their back on a clear-eyed view of the world, but also dismissing the ideals that you personally hold so dear.Aaron Shurehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00837439765332783167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-12074217513966326702012-04-02T17:55:01.351-04:002012-04-02T17:55:01.351-04:00Aren't the "consequences" of alienat...Aren't the "consequences" of alienating your relative more potentially severe than alienating someone who has little power to unpleasantly retaliate? Or do you think a relative is somehow more, rather than less, forgiving of impertinence? <br />And have you not noted that the most bitter enmities arise between those who have otherwise been closest?<br />And isn't a consequentialist concerned with direct as well as indirect consequences"Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07573847127040276949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-33784578863157379072012-04-02T14:05:01.060-04:002012-04-02T14:05:01.060-04:00From what you've said, I think you're cons...From what you've said, I think you're constructing a moral framework to fit around your moral intuitions, in which case why not simply go with your intuition? Also, shouldn't you expect that an objective morality would be offensive to your ape intuitions? Quantum mechanics is offensive to mine, at least. And that's apparently an easier problem.JoshJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13232627951659106765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-68226465803683899812012-04-02T14:00:51.011-04:002012-04-02T14:00:51.011-04:00The way I see it you accomplished a little somethi...The way I see it you accomplished a little something, which is more than most people can say. Plus, you seldom see the blinds fall from their eyes. Some people will just go home and mull over what you said truly seeing your point much later. Given how believers usually respond to fact one should be content with having planted a few seeds.Rodolfohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02477484154218528122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-44827612405967792512012-04-02T10:08:18.977-04:002012-04-02T10:08:18.977-04:00I've been arguing with "truther" rel...I've been arguing with "truther" relatives for years, though not as calmly as you apparently did - perhaps because one of those relatives is a parent of mine, the other an uncle whom I see a few times a year (e.g. holiday gatherings). <br /><br />In retrospect, I would say that I was <i>more</i> willing to engage their cuckoo beliefs <i>because</i> they are close relatives - probably more out of a personal sense of shame and embarrassment, as opposed to out of fealty to any particular ethical theory. <br /><br />Nowadays, we simply avoid the topic for the sake of keeping the peace (much like we avoid the topic of religion around our Christian relatives), but I gather that they still keep the 9/11 faith.mufihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01818949854678769391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-36741397430037727212012-04-02T09:25:54.716-04:002012-04-02T09:25:54.716-04:00It seems like you addressed pretty much every argu...It seems like you addressed pretty much every argument your relative made within a relatively short time-frame. I guess if you are concerned you didn't engage <i>enough</i>, was there something you think you <i>didn't</i> say?SimonSayshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04748847530760277608noreply@blogger.com