tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post2854468274503604322..comments2023-10-10T08:02:18.073-04:00Comments on Rationally Speaking: The Simulation Hypothesis and the problem of natural evil, part IVUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-49322267406749412272012-10-11T23:23:29.463-04:002012-10-11T23:23:29.463-04:00One thing not pointed out here, and there seems to...One thing not pointed out here, and there seems to be a lack of theological understanding is that death isn't "evil" at least in Christian theology. It is objectionable but it is a penalty so God allowing justified death isn't evil but actual murder, unjustified killing is. I don't know many Christians who think that the weather is direct punishment by God by the end result that people die is the penalty. Don't shoot he messenger I'm simply pointing out theology.<br />Now you may say that a child dieing can't possibly be a penalty that is justifiable but you can only really say that God allows it, not directly causes it personally only that things were set into motion by him and by that you are casting your own moral judgement that you believe God to be committing evil acts.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16881393141751843201noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-65896170714121921502012-04-27T12:35:42.517-04:002012-04-27T12:35:42.517-04:00Kyle, I also have a very simple question. Aren'...Kyle, I also have a very simple question. Aren't you basically talking about the demiurge here (at least according to some traditions)?Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11332828263550581927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-71246934313393726792012-04-27T12:28:17.346-04:002012-04-27T12:28:17.346-04:00Whoops, that last line should read "an infini...Whoops, that last line should read "an infinite program could compute the K-complexities of all strings that can be generated by finite programs."Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11332828263550581927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-88153936177559180542012-04-27T12:25:28.959-04:002012-04-27T12:25:28.959-04:00Kyle, I think you've already hit on the proble...Kyle, I think you've already hit on the problem with this argument. If we require that this knowledge be inaccessible even with <i>infinite</i> knowledge, then this argument fails. The actual result that I think Linas is referring to is the result that Kolmogorov complexity -- the function mapping strings to lengths of minimal descriptions of those strings -- is uncomputable. But there are caveats; the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmogorov_complexity#Basic_results" rel="nofollow">proof of uncomputability</a> presented on the Wikipedia page applies only to <i>finite programs</i>. <br /><br />A finite program capable of computing Kolmogorov complexities would create a paradox, because it would enable you to create another finite program p that, given an arbitrary string of minimum complexity k, would find a corresponding algorithm and run it, generating the string. But if k > len(p), this produces a paradox, because now p can generate our string, and therefore the complexity of the string is not k but len(p), violating our initial assumption. <br /><br />This is somewhat analogous to the following paradox: "N is the smallest integer that cannot be described in fewer than twenty words." If n exists, then it can be described in fewer than twenty words, and so does not satisfy the predicate. <br /><br />But if our Kolgomorov-complexity-computing program can be infinitely long, then it can compute the complexity of any string that can be generated by a finite program, because its size is greater than all such programs, and the above paradox does not hold. (However, it cannot, in turn, calculate the complexity of strings that can only be generated by programs longer than itself.)<br /><br />The upshot is that an infinite program could compute the K-complexities of all finite programs. <br /><br />...I think.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11332828263550581927noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-63641782617790007332012-04-18T19:53:29.452-04:002012-04-18T19:53:29.452-04:00David (or is it Kyle?)
Thanks for your answer.
T...David (or is it Kyle?)<br /><br />Thanks for your answer.<br /><br />There is this: in order for simulated characters to be considered “persons”, they must have more than a superficial relationship with persons in the Real world. They must somehow be something more than simple simulations, isn't it? Perhaps this leaves room for the theist to sneak in a sensus divinatis or whatever it is they would try. In any case, how can we define these minimum requirements for a simulated person to be considered genuine?<br /><br />And if a computer simulation by an evil programmer does not quite make it, perhaps we can turn this backward and imagine that our universe is in fact essentially as it seems to be, except that it is the creation of an evil engineer from a world totally unlike ours - in which, maybe, there is not even a notion of personhood or consciousness (the latter perhaps problematic with computer simulations). I'm not sure this is very relevant to your argument, however.JPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12609837930361362269noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-33045985609951574252012-04-18T15:50:45.123-04:002012-04-18T15:50:45.123-04:00If I understand you right, you want to argue that ...If I understand you right, you want to argue that "a world with no natural evil" is a mathematical impossibility, and since what is mathematically impossible is logically impossible, and God can't do what is logically impossible, God can't create a world without natural evil, even though he is infinitely powerful. Interesting! <br /><br />As I mention in my conversation chbieck, there have been those that have tried to "tie God's hands" in similar ways, and say a world without natural evil is logically impossible (I gave a citation above). But they usually do it by trying to equate physical possibility with logical possibility. That fails. But you are doing it by trying to argue that it is mathematically impossible. <br /><br />I think this is very interesting; a full blown argument would be neat to see. You seem to think it requires Platonism about math, and that might be a problem. But I'm not even sure it requires this. If there are certain things it is impossible to know with even infinite knowledge, and that's one of them...maybe this works. I don't know--I'd have to see the full argument. (My original paper is published in Philo--maybe you could get a publication by responding to it.) <br /><br />One problem may be...well, you say, "Perhaps there is some large, very long, very complex differential equation that does not have tornadoes in it? Err, well, no. There almost surely isn't." Wouldn't we have to prove there isn't for this to work. If we can't prove there isn't, should we say it's logically possible there is...and thus my conclusion still follows? <br /><br />There is also this problem: This might get you out of tornadoes, but does it get you out of diseases, earthquakes, meteors, etc? Can you make all of these things "mathematical necessities"? <br /><br />At any rate, this all would I think make heaven an impossibility--there will be natural disasters in heaven if they are mathematical necessities. And I doubt many theists are going to accept that consequence. <br /><br />Thanks for the comments!David Kyle Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12507177877147216376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-86283790542068946682012-04-18T15:34:16.941-04:002012-04-18T15:34:16.941-04:00Bostrom deals with the possibility that our world ...Bostrom deals with the possibility that our world is monumentally different than the world of the computer programer--like, if it's "aliens" (being biologically different than us). He does this in the FAQ section of his site on the simulation argument. I think the same thing he says there to defend his argument defends mine here. <br /><br />http://www.simulation-argument.com/faq.html<br /><br />I don't think it is accurate to say that natural evil is a result of the randomness of nature--if that were true, there would not be uniformity in where hurricanes and tornadoes form, where earthquakes happen, how diseases transmit, etc. They are a result of the regularities--the laws--that govern our universe. They are not a result of randomness (although, exactly where they occur--what path they take--might be the result of a random quantum event...but I doubt it. In any cause, their existence is not.) But I don't see how a world without randomness is incompatible with autonomous agents. Free will requires alternate possibility (at least on the libertarian definition), not randomness. In fact, one of the common objections to their being free will is that the only reason that the world is not deterministic (and thus absent of free will) is because of quantum randomness--but random actions aren't free either. So randomness does nothing to save free will...at least, not that I can see. <br /><br />Others, in response to this problem, have argued that physical and logical possibility are one in the same thing--and so God hand's really are tied. He could do nothing but create a universe with the laws we have; but such arguments don't work. On all accounts, the laws of physics don't limit the laws of logic. <br /><br />(For this argument, See “Science and the Problem of Evil: Suffering as a By-Product of a Finely Tuned Cosmos” in Murphy, Nancy., Russell, Robert John., and Stoeger, William R. (eds.). (2007) Physics and Cosmology: Scientific Perspectives of the Problem of Natural Evil. Vatican Observatory Foundation(2007), pp. 148-150.) <br /><br />I will grant, however, that any theist who makes that move--he doesn't really believe God is omnipotent. If God is limited by the laws of physics, he is not all powerful. <br /><br />And God bless those Cathars. <br /><br />Thanks for the comments!David Kyle Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12507177877147216376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-76712079882598662272012-04-18T15:25:26.137-04:002012-04-18T15:25:26.137-04:00It's not that heaven isn't poosible, it...It's not that heaven isn't poosible, it's that it is radically different; it doesn't serve the same purpose. For people who believe in it, heaven is a reward for a moral choice that has already been made. Isn’t it supposed it meant to be some sort of post-moral existence? Just like Eden (your other example) was supposedly pre-moral. Think of heaven’s opposite, hell. Hell is a post moral existence as well because it’s a punishment for a moral choice or choices already made. No need for moral evolution or development, moral choices no longer count in hell.<br /><br />Then it's the natural world that is the theatre of morality - those other places not so much. If morality does't count there what happens to your argument?Al Huntoonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14132236160471269264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-12395351991396509812012-04-18T15:24:34.940-04:002012-04-18T15:24:34.940-04:00Kyle, it's not only calvinists that see gods a...Kyle, it's not only calvinists that see gods as deterministic (and you'll note that there's a difference between this and predetermiistic). There'd have been no need to envision gods at all if not as the determinant cause of everything.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07573847127040276949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-24132408458272989642012-04-18T15:15:17.586-04:002012-04-18T15:15:17.586-04:00Yeah, I think that chbieck is right--there are way...Yeah, I think that chbieck is right--there are ways to make it work.David Kyle Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12507177877147216376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-22761111499378954232012-04-18T15:13:20.750-04:002012-04-18T15:13:20.750-04:00Linas
Yeah, disease certainly is a natural disast...Linas<br /><br />Yeah, disease certainly is a natural disaster...and I include that in my original paper. I didn't here for brevity. I think aging would be too--but I don't think we logically need either for evolution to occur. Death might not even be logically needed for evolution. The ability to survive is a fit train only because death makes one unable to reproduce. But one could be unable to reproduce for other reasons. There is a logically possible world no one ages, and no one even dies, and yet evolution occurs--certain traits just make you more or less likely to reproduce (perhaps before you lose the ability/drive to do so). Such a world would either require a lot of space, or be crowded, but it's logically possible. Even if death is necessary for evolution, aging, disease, etc. (natural disasters) are not the only way we die. We can die in a large variety of unnatural ways. So, again, even if evolution requires death, natural disasters are not necessary for evolution. But certainly, disease and aging are not required for "fit traits to work to fixation." <br /><br />But, just to be clear: "we can have death, etc but without the hurricanes" is not an inconsistent statement. It doesn't contradict itself. In fact, not only is it consistent, it's true. Since people die for non-hurricane related reasons, we can have death without hurricanes. I think what you meant to say is that it is an incomplete statement--you thought I was leaving out natural evils, like diseases and aging, that you think are necessary for evolution. But I have argued they are not necessary for evolution.David Kyle Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12507177877147216376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-77433853252128753432012-04-18T15:08:15.701-04:002012-04-18T15:08:15.701-04:00"my argument assumes is that it is logically ..."my argument assumes is that it is logically possible that God could have created a world, with us in it, that doesn't have natural evil." <br />Kyle, I find that argument incredibly weak, since without your version of natural evil, his "us" would not have been our "us."<br /><br />In any case, your earlier proposition was that "In my next entry I will fulfill my promise and show why such theists must believe that we live in a computer simulation."<br /><br />Remote possibilities are not musts.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07573847127040276949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-34860695834254018052012-04-18T14:59:37.650-04:002012-04-18T14:59:37.650-04:00As for the second item:
It sounds like you grew ...As for the second item: <br /><br />It sounds like you grew up around staunch Calvinists, who think that God controls everything, right down to our own actions, even causing us to do evil things, and then judging us for doing them, even though he had us do them for his own purposes. I feel for you--I knew some too. <br /><br />I didn't include this one because no academic takes this position seriously anymore--not even ones from a Calvinist tradition. It's completely incompatible with any kind of view of morality, free will, moral responsibility, omni-benevolence, etc. <br /><br />This view of God does not solve the problem of natural evil at all becuase one still wonders how God could create a world (no matter whether it is physical or a simulation) that has "human killing machines" built right into it, and still be an all-good god. This Calvinist story is not a story in which 1,3 and 4 are true together--(1) is false! God is not all good. <br /><br />And not only becuase he causes natural evil--but because he causes all moral evil in the world as well, and then not only judges people for evil actions that he made them do, but makes them burn in hell forever for "doing it" (i.e., for him making them do it). This Calvinist god is worse that Satan. (Ever had a friend that made you murder someone, and then called the cops on you so you'd get the chair?) <br /><br />The only way out the Calvinist has is skeptical theism--"God has reasons for being worse than Satan that are beyond us." But I covered the illegitimacy of that response in the post.David Kyle Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12507177877147216376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-86448179467904974152012-04-18T14:46:24.517-04:002012-04-18T14:46:24.517-04:00Roy
You don't have to assume that God exists ...Roy<br /><br />You don't have to assume that God exists to say "God can be morally justified in allowing natural disasters because they lead to a greater good: our evolution." I'm speaking in hypotheticals. What you are suggesting is that, if God exists, he would be permitted to allow natural disaster becuase it leads to a greater good: our evolution. And, so you argue, if that is true, theists could use that to defend against my argument. I am saying that move is not open to them, because allowing natural disasters is not necessary to produce the good of our existence. God need not even create us via evolution. <br /><br />So I think you are still missing my point. As I posted out to Al, all my argument assumes is that it is logically possible that God could have created a world, with us in it, that doesn't have natural evil. You're right--it's not plausible. But it's possible. Sure, even if we were seeded we still evolved. But it's logically possible that God could have just created us, as is, without evolution to live in a world with no natural disasters. God could have had us evolve, but simply "tweaked the process" now and again to get us to human form, instead of relying on catastrophes. <br /><br />It is a matter of fact that catastrophes contributed to our evolution; no meteor hit to wipe out the dinosaurs and we wouldn't be here. And, if there is no God, it's very unlikely that we would just spring out of nothing fully formed--evolution is the best (although likely not only) atheistic explanation for the origin of life. But this doesn't keep other scenarios from being logically possible--and since there are logically possible morally superior choices, God should have--must have--chosen them, if he is to be morally perfect. <br /><br />Basically, your objection only works if "evolution pushed by natural disasters" is the only logically possible explanation for our existence--and not only does evolution not logically require natural disasters, but evolution is not the only logically possible explanation for life. It's the best, certainly--but it's not the only logically possible one.David Kyle Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12507177877147216376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-16663864806006286052012-04-18T14:29:11.566-04:002012-04-18T14:29:11.566-04:00Yeah, it's true that some theists don't be...Yeah, it's true that some theists don't believe in heaven--but none I have ever come across think that heaven is logically impossible. And it has to be for this to be an legit objection to my argument. Any any objection you apply to the possibility of a world with no natural evil is an objection to the possibility of heaven. "Such a world is not conducive to free will and moral behavior." Well, maybe...but if so, neither is heaven--and if free will and moral behavior are so important, then heaven is not a perfect place. <br /><br />I'm not even arguing that such a world is logically possible--I'm arguing that, given their own commitments, the theist can't deny that it is logically possible--but if it is, they are committed to the simulation hypothesis. <br /><br />I guess they could turn around and deny that it is logically possible but then (a) they have to face the reasons I have given that it is and (b) that move is an ad hoc rationalization that renders this position irrational. Heaven has been admitted for 2000 years to not only be a logical possibility, but to be a real place--to turn around now and deny that it is even possible to save yourself is clearly just an attempt to dodge a bullet--they don't really believe it. (Not to mention, I still think it's a consequence they wouldn't want to embrace--just like the simulation hypothesis.)David Kyle Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12507177877147216376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-3118436751610506382012-04-18T12:05:21.518-04:002012-04-18T12:05:21.518-04:00I appreciate your response and don't want to b...I appreciate your response and don't want to belabor the point but it seems to me that your case for simulation hinges on this one assumption – “After all, he could have designed our universe in such a way that no physical conditions could ever give rise to such atrocities, leaving the amount of evil and suffering we endure solely up to us.” <br /><br />That is what I am questioning in my second post; I simple don’t think it’s a valid assumption. In your paper you cite heaven as an example of a place that theists believe in where there is no natural evil, no bad consequences to natural processes. But a belief in heaven and a belief in god are separate but related; there are many people who believe in god but not heaven. For many people who believe in god, this is the only world that exists. An what about people who believe in heaven but don’t see it as a physical place?<br /><br />It seems intuitive and self evident (to me at least) to think that the benefits of the natural world must be linked to the costs, the disasters, in just the same way that it is intuitive to view natural catastrophes as “evil.” A world inhabited by humans where natural processes lead to beneficial outcomes but negative consequences to humans are prevented seems too paternalistic a place to also allow the freedom of thought necessary to free will and morality. Such a world might be logically possible but one could argue that it would only be made workable by such a transparent application of divine intervention that it would result in removing the opportunity for development of free will so it would not give rise to the right conditions that make moral choice possible.<br /><br />I'm just not that clever, somebody must have developed a simlar ine of reasoning.Al Huntoonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14132236160471269264noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-76242843948819884402012-04-18T09:02:23.389-04:002012-04-18T09:02:23.389-04:00It doesn't interfere with the programmer's...It doesn't interfere with the programmer's free will - God could either have asked the guy to send Jesus in (with the option to say "no"), or the programmer could have included the I/O capability in the simulation design from the start.<br /><br />As to making sense, it makes about as much sense as the plot of Tron and how much "dying for our sins" makes at all. If Kevin Flynn could do it, God certainly can ;-)<br /><br />As to interfering with our free will - again no, it's part of the program. Actual free will for Sims might be stretching it, anyway... ;-)chbieckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11038854944875543524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-39935266845248840712012-04-18T05:39:38.565-04:002012-04-18T05:39:38.565-04:00Understood. Two quibbles with that:
1. If I under...Understood. Two quibbles with that:<br /><br />1. If I understand it correctly, Bostrom's argument does seem to rest on ancestor simulations. Not that big a deal, except that you argue from Bostrom in part I. If we are talking monster simulation (i.e. one run by beings in a higher-order world, e.g. a seven dimensional one), then "computer" is just an analogy. (I wrote a short story on that stuff a few years ago, like probably a large percentage of aspiring SF writers ;-) )<br /><br />2. I am not clear how stating that the theist must believe we are a simulation rooted in a world without natural evil is any better than saying "God works in mysterious ways". Natural evil is just a fancy name for the randomness of nature, and that is the result of the laws of physics. It is hard to see how a world without some randomness could actually work and and allow autonomous agents. If it is physically impossible, does it even make sense to say it is logically possible? (Can any physicists comment on the physical possibility?)<br /><br />[NB: I stand by the contention made in the comments to post II: a theist who tries to argue this stuff logically with you does not actually believe his deity is omnipotent, even though he might say he does. ;-) ]<br /><br />If I recall correctly, the Cathars believed something that sounds suspiciously like your simulation argument: we actually live in Hell, and it's all just a test...chbieckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11038854944875543524noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-42376187993889819292012-04-18T01:30:16.076-04:002012-04-18T01:30:16.076-04:00Here's another curious possibility.
Someone a...Here's another curious possibility.<br /><br />Someone already argued, in another posting, that God surely does not have the power to to alter 2+2=4, to change the laws of logic, to alter the digits of pi, etc. That is, God cannot alter the Platonic conception of mathematical reality. So let us accept this as a starting point, and let us also accept Platonism. Well, one of the inhabitants of the Platonic universe is this idea of "Kolomogorov Complexity", which can be interpreted to say that there are fundamental, mathematical limits to omniscience. No matter how smart one is, even if one is infinitely smart, there are things you just cannot know. Furthermore, there's reason to believe that Kolomogorov complexity is somewhere in the range of 200 to 1K bytes. Whatever.<br /><br />So assuming 1) Platonism, and 2) God's inability to alter Platonic reality, then we conclude 3) even God cannot possibly be omniscient. <br /><br />This now leads to the curious possibility: perhaps God simply does not know of any laws of physics that do not result in a universe with evil in it. As I mentioned in a different post: air is described by fluid dynamics, which are just a set of differential equations. We know that these equations have solutions that have tornadoes in them. To not have tornadoes, we would have to live in a universe with a different set of equations for fluid dynamics.<br /><br />Now, there simply are not that many different kinds of differential equations. Yes, we know of thousands, and these fall into classes, some of which are properly called "infinite", but realistically, there are not that many. What does this mean, what am I saying? Well, to write down an equation on a piece of paper, one uses symbols. There are only a finite number of these. There are only so many different ways in which these symbols can be re-arranged so that they fit on a piece of paper, and still make sense. Its a finite number-- large, but finite.<br /><br />Now, in the real world, all of our differential equations that describe our physical universe are all remarkably small. They simply don't take up that much room on a piece of paper. <br /><br />Perhaps there is some large, very long, very complex differential equation that does not have tornadoes in it? Err, well, no. There almost surely isn't.<br /><br />The other thing to notice is that, in the real world, most all of our equations have "tornado-like" solutions: they have either chaotic regimes, or outright turbulent ones.<br /><br />So, even if you could invent and create brand-new laws of physics, in the form of differential equations, you would find it extremely difficult to find equations that did not have tornadoes and hurricanes. Given the Kolomogorov complexity of representing a differential equation, vs. that of predicting the outcome of it's solution, well, one can and should argue that perhaps an even infinitely powerful God simply cannot know, is simply unable to design a universe that does not have natural evil in it.<br /><br />So what does God do? The same thing as any poor shmuck with a hard problem does: run a simulation, and find out. Although maybe he can't figure it out, well, perhaps by running enough simulations, he can stumble upon a set of laws of physics that result in universe without natural evil in it.<br /><br />Anyway, that's *my* personal take on natural evil. Given what we know about mathematics, there may be very real and very finite limits to what even an infinitely smart God can know, and do. And natural evil may simply be on the wrong side of the complexity boundary.Linashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06727140737389197948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-60009914384673811442012-04-18T00:51:29.359-04:002012-04-18T00:51:29.359-04:00kyle8425, If you say that a natural disaster is a ...kyle8425, If you say that a natural disaster is a natural evil, then surely an epidemic would be also (e.g. the medieval plagues, the early 20th century flu epidemic). But, as our knowledge of biochemistry increases, it has become apparent that both cancer, as well as natural aging, must be viewed as certain types of "preventable" natural evils: viz, the progression of cancer in a single individual is in many ways like an epidemic; the mechanisms of aging are due (among other things) dimerization or cross-linking of sacharides. That is, both disease and natural aging must also be placed in the category of "natural evil". (This, to me, knowing what I know of physics and chemistry, is as inescapable as any statements about earthquakes).<br /><br />So, when you say "we can have death, etc but without the hurricanes", I think that is an utterly inconsistent statement. You've already accepted physics as the cause of hurricanes; so it must be likewise with disease and aging. You can't label one as a natural evil without labeling the other likewise.Linashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06727140737389197948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-21781968073876114732012-04-18T00:05:30.500-04:002012-04-18T00:05:30.500-04:00Kyle, you wrote: "What you are saying is that...Kyle, you wrote: "What you are saying is that God can be morally justified in allowing natural disasters because they lead to a greater good: our evolution (and eventual existence)."<br />Not at all, because that would be an argument of those who believe in God, not mine.<br /><br />"I’m pretty sure it’s false that we need natural disasters in order to evolve." <br />I'm an advocate for adaptive mutation as a theory, and believe that we evolved as a reaction to the problems of experience, to take advantage of accidents, etc. And without the occasional catastrophes, we would not have had to become humans at all.<br /><br />"Although calamities did shape our evolution, they didn’t have to. And, although our existence was a product of evolution, it didn’t have to be. It is most certainly logically possible that our existence was not a product of evolution."<br />Again, it's my opinion that they had to. One point would be that we might otherwise have remained dinosaurs. And of course to exist as we are was precisely due to how we adapted to the particular natural problems faced. It's logically possible that our existence was not a product of evolution? If so, it's hardly plausible, since even if we were seeded from other worlds, we still had to evolve on this one.<br /><br />Re the second item, if theists were inclined, as they are, to believe a God was determining their behavior (and programming is certainly determining), and then judging them for it at the same time, they'd have no problem believing that any 'simulator' was a God, regardless.<br />And the theists that I grew up with felt that God let evil exist for his purposes, Devil being there to take the hindmost.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07573847127040276949noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-92178893303488720672012-04-17T22:35:22.113-04:002012-04-17T22:35:22.113-04:00Yeah, good question. I am just talking about a &qu...Yeah, good question. I am just talking about a "computer simulation," not an ancestor simulation that replicates the laws of the original universe. Perhaps an ancestor simulation is a little more likely than a mere computer simulation (perhaps there is more motivation for doing a simulation that replicates the laws of the original physical universe, than not)--but a computer simulation is still more likely than, say, the brain-in-a-vat hypothesis. And that is what I need for the argument to work. <br /><br />(I'm not so sure ancestor simulations would be more likely, however. I think such simulations would most likely be games and people would "mod" them in many different ways.) <br /><br />But you are right--if natural evil is not absent from the one real physical world, suggesting we are in a computer simulation just backs up the problem. But since our world, as a computer simulation, need not mimic the physical world, my argument still stands. <br /><br />I perhaps should be a bit more specific: the theist is committed to believing that we live in a computer simulation, that may or may not be run in another simulation, but is ultimately rooted in a physical world without natural evil.David Kyle Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12507177877147216376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-67087302530258306712012-04-17T22:24:24.238-04:002012-04-17T22:24:24.238-04:00I think an equally interesting question is--can we...I think an equally interesting question is--can we make sense of simulated Jesus? Could God send his one and only son to die on the cross for our sins, as a person program in a computer simulated world? Would that interfere with the free will of the programer? (Would giving the inhabitants of a computer simulation religious experiences interfere? If so, we might be able to make the your previous atheism argument work. What do you think?)David Kyle Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12507177877147216376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-27179533306707631632012-04-17T22:21:38.955-04:002012-04-17T22:21:38.955-04:00JP
This is a REALLY good question. Here is what I...JP<br /><br />This is a REALLY good question. Here is what I think the theist will say: <br /><br />"There is no reason that God cannot relate to simulated people, as he would physical people--he could still reveal himself (sensus divinitatis), cause religious experience, have a loving relationship, etc. In fact, simulated people may not be that different than physical people in the eyes of God--they are both unlike him, living in a "world" that he does not. I don't see the difficulty here."<br /><br />Now, we might push back and say, "Yeah, but you think that the sensus divinitatis is a faculty we have, but all our faculties are a result of the computer programers design, not God's design, so it can't get you knowledge of God--the computer programer can't design you with a 'God sense'." <br /><br />Theist's retort? "Why not? The sensus divinitatis, as a faculty, would be a function of our brain--the computer programer could create beings with such a faculty by simply copying how his brain (which presumably God designed with the sensus divinitatis) functions. Besides, God's God--he can do what he wants. He can reveal himself to simulated beings even if they don't have a sensus divinitatis." <br /><br />That last move might sacrifice a lot of the externalism/reliablism arguments for warrant/justification that Plantinga gives, and make one wonder why they bothered with the sensus divinitatis stuff in the first place, but I think it might still defend basic theistic belief--at least render in possible. I don't know--what do you think?David Kyle Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12507177877147216376noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-17110837820262863012012-04-17T22:06:51.639-04:002012-04-17T22:06:51.639-04:00I am greatly confused by this question however: “W...I am greatly confused by this question however: “Why is it that theists 'must' believe that we live in a computer simulation. Why wouldn't they instead believe that their God had computational powers in a deterministic universe?” I don’t even understand what that is supposed to mean. God would have computational powers, if he existed. So, you are basically asking “why wouldn’t theists believe our universe is deterministic?” I am arguing that the theist is committed to the simulation hypothesis because it is the most viable option they have for resolving the seeming logical incompatibility of 1,3 and 4. How does our universe being deterministic solve that incompatibility? How is that a story in which 1,3 and 4 are all true together? How is God having computational powers in a deterministic universe a story in which 1,3 and 4 are all true together. And even if so, how is that a more viable hypothesis? I’d venture some guesses—but I don’t even know what “God had computational powers in a deterministic universe?” even means, much less how it applies to this problem. <br /><br />Are you perhaps asking why don’t theists believe that God is the computer programmer? That can’t be right, because that doesn’t address the problem at all. The problem is “why would god regulate our universe with laws that give rise to natural disasters that kill us randomly”—God being the programmer would just mean he regulated our universe with such laws in a different way (by programming instead of creating). <br /><br />Do you mean why wouldn’t they just believe that, when it comes to the laws that govern the universe, God’s hands were tied and he only had one choice—the laws that we have. That doesn’t work. We know these are not the only possible laws. Additionally, God can do whatever is logically possible, and the laws only define what is physically possible—so a different set of laws is logically possible and within God’s power. This would greatly limit God’s power, and make the existence of heaven impossible. So the theist is not going to go for that. <br /><br />So, again—I’d answer your question. But I literally don’t know what it means.David Kyle Johnsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12507177877147216376noreply@blogger.com