tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post2088650429348566966..comments2023-10-10T08:02:18.073-04:00Comments on Rationally Speaking: David Silverman and the scope of atheism — PostscriptUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger93125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-20317728630958588962014-03-24T00:05:06.360-04:002014-03-24T00:05:06.360-04:00You're way too smart to be just figuring out n...You're way too smart to be just figuring out now that you're dealing with a massively irrational religious cult (which merely happens to lack a deity).jinrokhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00155470600628162027noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-6964039303098246022014-03-23T13:00:09.169-04:002014-03-23T13:00:09.169-04:00I am prochoice, but I know a few nonbelievers who ...I am prochoice, but I know a few nonbelievers who have difficulties with abortion, including one pro life atheist who claims she was "almost aborted" by her parents.<br /><br />That said, most arguments about what is "right" and "wrong", regardless of context, have more to do with one's moral intuitions than empirical claims. And there is a strong tendency to think one's own moral intuitions are so obvious that those who do not share them are "dishonest" and "manipulative".<br /><br />The posts in this thread make for a good case study in moral psychology.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-40045568562070156302014-03-23T12:39:09.736-04:002014-03-23T12:39:09.736-04:00I have to say I was surprised you would have someo...I have to say I was surprised you would have someone like Greta Christina on your podcast because vitriolic statements seem to be her baseline behavior; emotionalism rather than reason seem to be how she operates. <br /><br />Still, I am not against having her, since I support the free exchange of ideas. Greta, on the other hand, actually bans people from her blog who have even slight disagreements.<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-71418745336222921262014-03-21T11:53:38.401-04:002014-03-21T11:53:38.401-04:00I also agree with you completely, Martha.I also agree with you completely, Martha.Phil Pollackhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02426366496694872197noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-35400163572920165722014-03-21T08:05:18.725-04:002014-03-21T08:05:18.725-04:00Well stated, Martha. I agree.Well stated, Martha. I agree.Philip Thrifthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03021615111948806998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-51494237320536567942014-03-20T22:02:36.671-04:002014-03-20T22:02:36.671-04:00While I agree that a discussion and debate over th...While I agree that a discussion and debate over the secular arguments showing that some abortions are "morally problematic" is different from the political debate over whether we should change the laws on abortion and thus curb women's right to control our bodies. That said, what Silverman did was go to a convention of political parties who are officially and actively fighting to limit or ban abortion, and then he told them that there are secular arguments against abortion. The implication is that there are secularists who are "pro-life" (which is a political stance on the legality of abortion, not a philosophical stance about the morality of choosing to have an abortion) and who use arguments which are sensible. <br /><br />What Hemant Mehta did was much worse IMO, because he twice in one month gave a platform to leaders of actual anti-choice organizations that are actively working to change the laws and limit access to abortion at any stage of pregnancy. (The organizations "Secular Pro-Life" and "Pro-Life Humanists." <br /><br />That is why there is outrage over this. I don't mind at all if people sit around discussing the morality of abortion as a personal decision, so long as it is fully accepted that my and every other woman's rights to have a safe, legal, abortion for any reason during the pre-viability stages of pregnancy is maintain AND that my right to have my and every other woman's health concerns prioritized over even a viable fetus is maintained. <br /><br />Greta's point was that this shit is personal. You people are all sitting around talking about my rights. Don't fool yourself or anyone else into thinking this is about just ideas. It's about laws and regulations and women's rights, which is to say, human rights. If you don't believe me, I urge you to visit the websites of "Secular Pro-Life" and "Pro-Life Humanists" and see just how dishonest, manipulative, extremist, and *politically* active they are. Martha Knoxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10681751924771756798noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-37642334143293132912014-03-20T09:45:44.858-04:002014-03-20T09:45:44.858-04:00Bodily autonomy is a bullshit and baseless highfal...Bodily autonomy is a bullshit and baseless highfalutin theorizing. One need not rationalize any further than Margaret Sanger's public health concerns.Derek P. Moorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05805757510269258551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-89663900593026363132014-03-20T09:00:40.303-04:002014-03-20T09:00:40.303-04:00That's like saying, "If I met a gay man, ...That's like saying, "If I met a gay man, I'd beat him with a metal pipe." Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-68318276249486057422014-03-19T20:36:23.393-04:002014-03-19T20:36:23.393-04:00Yep, Blinn, it's all about tribalism.Yep, Blinn, it's all about tribalism.Gadflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13075757287807731373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-3603405700524582582014-03-19T16:20:42.589-04:002014-03-19T16:20:42.589-04:00wow, I knew Syndey Hook when I was very young, and...wow, I knew Syndey Hook when I was very young, and his conversion to right wing politics has always baffled me. although It mainly had to do with a reaction due to his disillusion with marxism. <br />I have been seeing strong reactions from some feminist areas that make me consider that internalized oppression is operating, and the role of oppressor is being reflected in the attacks on what some are questioning as modern feminist orthodoxy.<br />this attack on Massimo reminds me of the same sort of dynamics as the attacks on Ani diFranco. Being an icon of feminism and a very visible ally against racism. She was made to submit to the attacks and offer a full scale surrender. <br />This circles back to my thinking that Hook was horrified at the treatment of communists by Stalin, who were all forced to submit and acknowledge their being traitors.<br />I think it vital to find ways to show that this sort of approach is not only unnecessary to further the goals of feminism but is actually greatly undermining it in damaging ways. 1. By discouraging those that have honest disagreements. 2. By modeling behavior that thinks to solve conflict by "defeating the enemy" rather than encouraging dialogue that leads to greater understanding by all.tonylearnshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15168161576867493109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-3918472788378774042014-03-19T12:34:55.649-04:002014-03-19T12:34:55.649-04:00Im surprised the matter didnt end with your clarif...Im surprised the matter didnt end with your clarification(fwiw the original context was clear to me , even without the clarification) and Im finding the escalation of rhetoric(from "our" side) to be particularly stupid - especially since I consider you on the other side when it comes to New Atheism .<br /><br />I do think you are giving Silverman an easy pass though - You cannot go to a place containing people responsible for passing anti-choice laws and make sympathetic noises about abortion. <br />To me there are logical implications of atheism and people who follow that logic will arrive at liberal positions - given than secular objections can always be countered effectively - religious objections cannot and in a good number of issues religious opposition is all that really remains . In the case if abortion if you take out all the religious objections , even if there are secular objections , do you really think that the laws that get passed today, will get passed tomorrow? If not , then for all practical purposes non-belief ==> pro-choice.Deepak Shettyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04324456947895848248noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-68250616782476383492014-03-19T06:58:18.408-04:002014-03-19T06:58:18.408-04:00You are labouring under premise that equality argu...You are labouring under premise that equality arguments all stem from the same tree, unless you are a fundamentalist egalitarian they don't (and if you are that's fine but you can't expect everyone else to be). Every form of discrimination has it's own "reasons" that can be debated and disagreed on a case by case basis (see the example of children etc). Do you think American atheist organisations should be fighting for equality of Buddhists in Tibet? That's a perfectly good cause by why under the banner of Atheism, people can join more than one movement. Perhaps half the atheists would rather be promoting Atheism in Tibet.<br /><br />Not to mention the various definitions of equality - equality under the law, equality of outcome, equality of cultural respect.<br /><br />I don't understand why you want a one-stop-shop for a complex issue, least of all why you think the Atheism movement should be that (see humanism). Movements come and go, if there was equality for atheism I would much prefer the whole thing disbanded in dissolved into other interests - like these things normally do.downquarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15154074859072874873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-25022436262857602242014-03-19T00:12:09.304-04:002014-03-19T00:12:09.304-04:00I completely agree Justin.I completely agree Justin.dhoelscherhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13563056969341746388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-25528871156088580022014-03-18T22:42:07.684-04:002014-03-18T22:42:07.684-04:00A lot of this appears to be about talking past eac...A lot of this appears to be about talking past each other.<br /><br />I do not mean to turn the atheist movement into an equal pay movement; my real argument is that it makes sense to consider each individual 'we want equal treatment and respect for us' movement as a facet of the 'we want equal treatment for <i>everybody</i>' movement. It is intellectually inconsistent and hypocritical to fight for the removal of discrimination that affects us and then lean back and not care about discrimination against somebody else.<br /><br />This lead to people implying that atheists don't even need to fight for equality any more, and I pointed out that they still do, at least in some parts of the USA from what I hear and certainly in many Asian and African countries. The gender pay gap was merely an example to show that equality on paper is not necessarily the end of the story.<br /><br />I may likewise misunderstand the arguments that some others are making - at least where they go beyond "this is Freethought Blogs we are talking about so obviously they must be dishonest, hur hur hur".Alex SLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00801894164903608204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-30142586943768051212014-03-18T19:33:38.921-04:002014-03-18T19:33:38.921-04:00Jean-Nicolas - help me out here:
"What is mo...Jean-Nicolas - help me out here:<br /><br />"<i>What is morally relevant is that they do not steal, not how they feel about it</i><br /><br />then <br /><br /><i>"I am well aware that emotions as consequences are morally relevant"</i><br /><br />.So I can't really understand what you are saying. You said earlier that a child's emotions about stealing were not morally relevant and then you say you are well aware that emotions as consequences are morally relevant.<br /><br />So why is the earlier example an exception.<br /><br />That this might be difficult in practice is not relevant. If I could only save 9 out of ten people from a fire I would not consider, therefore, that saving 9 out of ten was a better consequence than saving 10 out of 10, merely that the better consequence was not, in this case achievable.<br /><br />If my kids do the right thing to avoid the negative emotions associated with doing the wrong thing because this is the best I can do in a case then it is still the better consequence that they do the right thing because of a positive emotion associated with doing the right thing.<br /><br />I will accept the lesser consequence if I have to and strive for the better consequence when I can.<br /><br />And yes, I manage to pull it off from time to time - I think that most parents do.<br /><br />But I can see no argument at all that their feelings about stealing are not morally relevant.Robinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16015911138886238144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-62915231839594869552014-03-18T12:18:45.900-04:002014-03-18T12:18:45.900-04:00I certainly endorse equal pay for equal work and l...I certainly endorse equal pay for equal work and lack of hiring descrimination. But that has nothing to do with atheism. <br />I was never interested in the atheist movement for crass Americocentric identity politics, I personally just like it for the discussions - for the fun of it.<br /><br />Sure if you want to turn it into an economic/social movement. Do it. But im not interested and think its a bad idea.<br /><br />Furthermore the form of movement I see people engaging is not one of equality or aquiring a social respect. Its simply about cultural domination.downquarkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15154074859072874873noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-17438900268273410992014-03-18T11:05:20.083-04:002014-03-18T11:05:20.083-04:00If I ever got pregnant I would have an abortion, w...If I ever got pregnant I would have an abortion, what about you Massimo?<br />=<br />Mike= MJAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01897595473268353450noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-40603662445702527892014-03-18T10:08:25.742-04:002014-03-18T10:08:25.742-04:00It's not ethically complex, it's one of th...It's not ethically complex, it's one of the simplest to answer: always wrong, in all cases. The questions on when life begins, on the other hand, and why substance-identity is correct, why body-self dualism is wrong, why the intellect is immaterial, and why personal identity cannot be psychological may each be technically complex, but those aren't ethical questions. I think atheists too often confuse the two.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-26172998852918911552014-03-18T09:39:29.984-04:002014-03-18T09:39:29.984-04:00One thing that annoys me is when people say that a...One thing that annoys me is when people say that atheists should get involved in such and such a cause so that "we can extend our appeal into that demographic. Get involved because something is right, not because you want to open a new market.Robinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16015911138886238144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-72211823152421224952014-03-18T09:17:42.502-04:002014-03-18T09:17:42.502-04:00Alex, I didn't even mention the direct conflic...Alex, I didn't even mention the direct conflicts between feminists, especially of the social justice warriors ilk, and men's rights advocates. On purely economic issues, you may be right, but on social issues? There's groups that will always be in direct conflict.Gadflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13075757287807731373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-90479326707382693572014-03-18T06:54:38.746-04:002014-03-18T06:54:38.746-04:00I am like that person. I am anti-late-term-abortio...I am like that person. I am anti-late-term-abortion (it should be outlawed). It's a habit of fundamentalist "feminists" to portray abortion as a very simple issue and to pretend that thinking for more than one second on it or not being pro-choice is misogynistic. I do my best to stay away from such people.Arpithttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17842513683654079721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-20851444053967276032014-03-18T04:26:15.969-04:002014-03-18T04:26:15.969-04:00I think you misunderstood. I am not the one saying...I think you misunderstood. I am not the one saying that children *should* experience guilt and shame, I argue against that.<br /><br />And when I argue against the moral evaluation of feelings, I oppose the notion that some feelings are correct and others incorrect. I am well aware that emotions as consequences are morally relevant. If my actions cause grief to someone, I should take that into consideration. So I think we agree on that point.<br /><br />With regard to education, I do feel queasy about shaming and guilting children, as you do. But I think it is inevitable that when an authority expresses desaprobation to a child, the child is going to experience negative feelings. With repetition, those feelings will become ingrained.<br /><br />And with an emotionally immature child (no denigration, it took me 30 years to reach something I dare say resemble maturity), you will not be able to sort those through those feelings with them and allow them to take distance from them.<br /><br />I you manage to pull it off, I might want to buy your book ^_^Jean-Nicolas Denonnehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00443566863833603342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-11284723870660713032014-03-17T20:30:55.658-04:002014-03-17T20:30:55.658-04:00I took it that Audra was referring to the so-calle...I took it that Audra was referring to the so-called "Elevatorgate".Robinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16015911138886238144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-35511639551185479242014-03-17T20:28:14.339-04:002014-03-17T20:28:14.339-04:00Jean-Nicolas Denonne wrote: "I would say that...Jean-Nicolas Denonne wrote: "<i>I would say that we teach children not to steal and instilling shame and guilt is how we teach it to them. What is morally relevant is that they do not steal, not how they feel about it.</i><br /><br />I think this sentence alone demonstrates what is wrong with your argument.<br /><br />I would never use shame and guilt to stop my kids from stealing, rather I would instill in them respect for others and for others' feelings. So how they feel about it is of paramount importance.<br /><br />A consequentialism of action is incoherent - a sort of "Stepford Wives" consequentialism.<br /><br />The only consequences worthwhile are consequences of feeling - feeling safe, nourished, free, happy, fulfilled, respecting of others.Robinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16015911138886238144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-79912643107281211202014-03-17T20:14:13.689-04:002014-03-17T20:14:13.689-04:00Gadfly,
Look, this is really not rocket science. ...Gadfly,<br /><br />Look, this is really not rocket science. Assume, as a not entirely hypothetical example. a country in which women are recognized as complete equals by the law, but in which they are on average paid two thirds of what men are paid for the same amount and type of work.<br /><br />Question: Does this country need a movement to raise awareness of the issue and push towards equal pay for women, or is there no need to worry because "the rights are there"? (And what if, for example, the courts mostly took the position that women already get what they deserve because the free market has decided so, and the free market can do no wrong?)<br /><br />Same for all other cases. There is more to equality than paper. Paper is patient, as we say in Germany.Alex SLhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00801894164903608204noreply@blogger.com