tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post1883682857360511954..comments2023-10-10T08:02:18.073-04:00Comments on Rationally Speaking: Concerning Hobbits, Habits and Our Highest HopesUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-86588062471111357012013-10-08T18:57:36.395-04:002013-10-08T18:57:36.395-04:00I found this interesting
http://plato.stanford.ed...I found this interesting<br /><br />http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/self-consciousness-phenomenological/<br />marc Levesquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06779771196251323474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-86165106755471008902013-09-26T11:25:40.024-04:002013-09-26T11:25:40.024-04:00Steve,
I very much enjoyed your post.
In a comme...Steve,<br /><br />I very much enjoyed your post.<br /><br />In a comment you said:<br /><br />>I don't think consciousness is needed for a human being to have and pursue and act on her values. Certainly phenomenal consciousness isn't needed; but self-consciousness plays a role in the feedback loop you mention.<<br /><br />I wonder how you are defining 'self-consciousness' or distinguishing it from 'phenomenal conciousness' ?<br />marc Levesquehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06779771196251323474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-81423878421016179732013-09-25T19:41:42.344-04:002013-09-25T19:41:42.344-04:00Again, the ideas of subselves, whether or not one ...Again, the ideas of subselves, whether or not one explicitly ties them to Dennett's multiple drafts idea of consciousness, is why I say "mu" to free will. If there's no Cartesian Meaner, there's no Cartesian Free Willer. I think the idea of unconscious, or semi-conscious, deep, non-amenable to change drives ties straight to this. Seth is kind of on the right track in that subselves reach back "up.": http://socraticgadfly.blogspot.com/2012/01/mu-to-free-will.htmlGadflyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13075757287807731373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-40804227837606438682013-09-25T14:24:40.250-04:002013-09-25T14:24:40.250-04:00I first met people who read and loved the trilogy ...I first met people who read and loved the trilogy books in the summer of 1970, and I have seen the three Lord of the Rings movies, and I still have no clue what any of this is about.Philip Thrifthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03021615111948806998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-58853199730044138012013-09-25T11:50:51.179-04:002013-09-25T11:50:51.179-04:00
Which is why I argue it is at least equally impo...<br /><br />Which is why I argue it is at least equally important that we move more of our conscious values into the subconscious sphere. To do this I think we need conceptualize the relationship in both directions.Seth_bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14562316879162720028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-11807985237197856702013-09-25T10:57:05.589-04:002013-09-25T10:57:05.589-04:00We become what we do, no what we pretend. DEVO.
...We become what we do, no what we pretend. DEVO. <br /><br />I think the quote answers the issues raised on the comments. The Ring quest is a plot device. The real life philosophical axiom is that we are conscious only so far as sub-conciseness manifest itself in our realities. We choke that manifestation with our residual self image, i.e what we think we look like to others. This is the wrench in the works you seek I think. William Collinshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03685033148678578129noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-46605383750069006522013-09-25T09:34:45.168-04:002013-09-25T09:34:45.168-04:00Seth_blog & Thomas:
I'm really only conce...Seth_blog & Thomas:<br /><br />I'm really only concerned (at least in this post) with that one direction--from inside out, as it were. <br /><br />And though I say that consciousness can play a part in the formula--in the sense of becoming aware of the fact that we often pursue values ignorant of *why* we do so--I don't think consciousness is needed for a human being to have and pursue and act on her values. Certainly phenomenal consciousness isn't needed; but self-consciousness plays a role in the feedback loop you mention.<br /><br />"given the ambiguous description of "drives,"<br /><br />The term "drives" is ambiguous because I'm talking about a level of description that is higher or more abstract--that is, the psychological level--than a neuroscientific description of neurons, neurotransmitters, etc. Maybe a specific drive can be reduced to a specific pattern of neuronal firing or some such thing, but I'm not aware of anyone who has done so; and I'm certainly no neuroscientist.<br /><br /><br />"More to the point, speaking personally, I don't "normally think" of my values as a "result of my drives," but I or others sometimes question my values/behavior when my actions seem merely impulsive or thoughtless."<br /><br />That's pretty much my point in this post. Sure, we all have an inventory of values that we consciously endorse, cultivate and promote; and part of becoming an "enlightened" human being is moving more of our subconscious values into the conscious sphere, or attenuating or eliminating (if that's even possible) ones we definitely would *not* endorse once we become aware of them; but there still are a good many that we're unaware of, yet they drive our behavior nonetheless.<br /><br />"couldn't you have just as easily changed the relative positions of "behavior" and "values"?"<br /><br />No, I don't think so. A "value" is an end or an aim or a goal; and behaviors are what we do to accomplish that end or aim or goal. Drives create or arrange an evaluative attitude in us, prompting us to take certain actions and perform certain behaviors in pursuit of our drives' ends. So in my mind values precede behaviors, generally speaking.<br />Steve Neumannhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07711295082644210782noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-26002449173460135172013-09-24T15:56:14.320-04:002013-09-24T15:56:14.320-04:00>So my general formula for the psychological Ho...>So my general formula for the psychological Holy Trinity of human existence — personal identity, consciousness and agency — is as follows:<br /><br />drives => values => behavior<<br /><br />The problem with this formula is two fold. 1) It only has arrows moving in one direction. Our behaviors most certainly feedback back into our drives & values. 2) The role of consciousness here is left unspecified.<br /><br />I agree that many of our drives bubble up from the sub-conscious, yet it also seems quite likely that we can apply consciousness to influence a later stage in the feedback cycle. The influence on the sub-conscious drives is indirect. This requires conscious effort to achieve negative feedback cycles that become habit. The alternative positive feedback cycles eventually spin out of control. Seth_bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14562316879162720028noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15005476.post-38493036011817938702013-09-24T10:46:53.117-04:002013-09-24T10:46:53.117-04:00Once One finds the true measure of One, One finds ...Once One finds the true measure of One, One finds the true measure of All. <br />Truth drives me,<br /><br />== MJAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01897595473268353450noreply@blogger.com